Techer and Force techniques are getting buffed right? (also other questions)

[the_importer_]

People simply don't use Talis because they dislike it. Talis will always hit harder than Rod once it's set, just because Talis Tech Bonus is that big. The main issue with Talis is its rigidity, making it hard to use correctly when things become too heated. Aside from using it for compounds, rod is mainly used then you need to duel very aggressive bosses that will not let you use your Talis and/or when you're dealing with techs that don't really shine when used from a Talis (best example of both issues are Amduscia UQ boss when they aggro you). In any case, Talis vs Rod has never even been a thing, any FO worth its penny will actively use both.

Probably is when you're trying to get a full elemental set. 6 weapons is already a pain, imagine 12

I won't discuss tree matters, because if you wanted to be an optimal FO you'd have to make a very wide array of trees, because of the sheer amount of quests requiring different numbers of elements (SEGA finally caught up on this and added Lightning weakness as an extra for Polytan, and I wish they made that for more seasonals). You could endlessly discuss which is better and never come to an agreement, because unless you have unlimited amounts of AC to spend, you're going to end up compromising for your tree/trees

Agreed. While the vast majority of quests only required 2, a certain number of EQ do have enemies from different planets which require a mix of different elements and that would probably require more trees than the maximum allowed in the game (if there's still a limit that is). On my end, I'll get the trees that will affect the most enemies in the quest and I'll focus on those, leaving the rest for the other players.

as for Rod PP Shoot, I agree it's a fairly nice boon. However, you have plenty of other ways to resplenish your PP. Rod normals is only a situational one for melee fighting, but you also have PP convert (skill or ring), Queen Viera, Orbit passive regen, Ketos Proi Photon Blast ony to name the main ones. Personally I use rod shoot to cast one or two extra techs to finish off something, but for any prolonged fight, I will rely on other options, as the PP regen for them is so vastly better than it makes up for the time spent not dealing damage.

When it's an EQ with mobs, I'll save my PB and PP Convert for the bosses or mid-bosses and Rod Shoot for mobs.Between walking to the next mob and having my Mag trigger refill my PPs, running out is usually not a problem since I have a lot of it.

Incidentally, while it's none of my business, this thread is severly veering off topic, that kind of discussion would be better in class discussion (god knows FO thread needs some love right now )

Pretty sure it's over now.

i'm done with this discussion... you ignored nearly all of the points i made, instead made your own separate points rather than providing actual counterargument, and your points are littered with logical fallacies and inexperience. good day.

Suit yourself mate, but I could say the same thing about you, and my points were real simple ones.

[maoulizbeth]

You’re gonna have to school me on this and provide evidences. When they released 12★ weapon tickets a couple of years back, I made an experiment where I bought a cheap 12★ rod and it’s talis equivalent, grinded and them and affixed them the same way, bought a new Fo tree, added the talis skills in it and started crunching the numbers. Most of the time, rod damage was a bit higher and any major damage variation on either weapon was attributed to critical hits.

When you think about it, hunter weapons: swords, wires lances and spears where each have their ups and down. If talis are really more powerful, why aren’t everyone using them? The way I see it, the advantage of using talis is to use your techs from a safe distance while rods hit harder but you need to be closer.

Not a big fan on how you decorate you Te tree, I would change subclass if I had to do it that way. As for rod shot, have you ever tried it to recharge your PP before? Night and day for me, more practical than rod whacking to regain PP faster and does more damage in the process.

talis tech bonus is 20% lol how are you not noticing it. and everyone /is/ using talis when appropriate unless they're drunk or lost their braincells long ago. also meleeing with rod gets you both shoot and whack which is a huge amount of pp. you might as well just do fast talis throws if youre only rod shooting for pp...honestly im not sure how one person can be so wrong in their convictions even when theres easy evidence out there

[Ceresa]

Well let’s be fair here, if we’re gonna go with that way of thinking, a Fo/Te at Lv 80/80 could run SH anything without any elemental mastery period and still kick ass, level and gear alone can kill mobs and bosses. That being said, in the event that we get XH on every free field, this will be an all new ball game.

I somehow doubt that you’ve spent the equivalent of over 5000 hours fighting Anga, so we’ll just go with the fact that you probably fought it more than I did mainly due to the fact that I don’t go rare hunting (no luck of the draw for stuff I actually want/need). As for the other thing, I was mainly pointing the fact that you can’t ignore an entire planet where the main enemies weakness is bolt while turning around and say that you need more elements in order to kill Anga.

JA Tech, the rod shot will sometime hit Anga and with my shitty luck, it’s enough to make Anga resist rods. The new skill that coming up should help with this. As for Talis, we’ll come back to that.

You can try to spin it however you want, but fact remains that in over 90% of every quest you do in this game, 2 elements are needed, 1 from Fo and one from Te, the game was designed this way in the first place. Now that we have our facts straight, answer me with a Yes or No, against the same boss with the same gear, same affix but with our respective skill tree strategy, will I do more damage than you. Remember, Yes or No only.

Now I’ll be honest in this next part by saying that I’ve only started playing EP5 and stopped to do the chronicle thing. That being said, I’ve checked swiki and only 4 out of 23 enemies require something else than Fire and Light, (17.39% of the enemies) and since I have yet played this through, I don’t know if some of these are isolated in separate quests which could allow me to grab my Ice / Light setup instead of Fire / Light.

You’re gonna have to school me on this and provide evidences. When they released 12★ weapon tickets a couple of years back, I made an experiment where I bought a cheap 12★ rod and it’s talis equivalent, grinded and them and affixed them the same way, bought a new Fo tree, added the talis skills in it and started crunching the numbers. Most of the time, rod damage was a bit higher and any major damage variation on either weapon was attributed to critical hits.

When you think about it, hunter weapons: swords, wires lances and spears where each have their ups and down. If talis are really more powerful, why aren’t everyone using them? The way I see it, the advantage of using talis is to use your techs from a safe distance while rods hit harder but you need to be closer.

Not a big fan on how you decorate you Te tree, I would change subclass if I had to do it that way. As for rod shot, have you ever tried it to recharge your PP before? Night and day for me, more practical than rod whacking to regain PP faster and does more damage in the process.

Where to even begin...

Let's start with Rod Shoot I guess. The projectile gives 10pp at level 3. Rod actual hit was buffed to now give 20/22/25 pp per hit. In a 3 hit combo with Rod Shoot you'll regain 97 pp, Rod shoot is only providing 30% of that. If you aren't in range for your rod normals to hit, then you shouldn't be swinging your rod at all. Instead you should swap to Queen Viera for 18pp per hit + faster shots, and if you aren't close range you might as well be using a talis for the inherently higher DPP so you spend less time in pp recovery phases.

90% of the quests are 1 element each tree? Maybe, if you're counting every irrelevant trash field that could be stomped without a single element mastery anyways and only consume like 5 minutes of your day for DO runs.

Let's look at the relevant EM, which is the real 90% of the game:

Deus: Light and Dark, Ramegid 0, Samegid, Gimegid, Ragrants, Ilgrants, and Grants all have enormous value here. That's two from techer.
Mother: Light (and Ice technically for better Barantsion): Sure that's fine.
Yamato: Nothing you do matters
Omega Hunny: Fire, Ice, Light: Two from force, but as it's also a mobbing quest you're gonna want to sweep the large spawns with Fomelgion, which means you also want Dark. That's two from techer.
Polytan/Seasonal: Need everything, and there is always some spurious excuse for a seasonal em year round. 2017 badges made them worth running the entire year to fight Solo PD for cubes/ray. Expect the trend to continue in 2018.

Non-EM
Buster Quest: Same as the EM version
Ultimate Lilipa: Fire, Light for weaknesses. Darkness and Ice to power up your compounds.
Ultimate Amu: Lightning, Light for weaknesses. Wind and Ice to power up your compounds.
Ultimate Nab: Ice, Light for weaknesses. Happily they boost the same compound. Still good to have a fallback for Anga resists.

And for everything else? Well the trash is one shot either way, so the person who has both halves of their compound maxed will win on bosses, every time.

And T-Atk up in trees.

Milrandy's tree posted earlier (and he probably has spent 5000 hours fighting anga): http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skill...000dBIb0000008

5 Elements maxed, T Atk 2 on techer yep, minimum 3/10 on both T Atk 1 done.

So that leaves 40+75 attack in Force tree, and 40 attack in Te tree for a total of 155 T. Attack.

My current stats
With Rod and standard buffs, no installs, 4571 attack.
With Talis and standard buffs, no installs, 4325 attack.

Enemies have around 300 defense
Rod: 4571-300 = 4271, 155 attack is about a 3.6% increase, less if you use installs
Talis: 4325-300 = 4025 155 attack is about a 3.8% increase, less if you use installs

Also need to mention I'm using hero all attack units, if I bothered with specialized T-Atk units, the contribution of those skill points would drop further.

Trading away an entire elemental mastery, that's 44% damage btw, and all the flexibility it brings for 4% at best is ridiculous. Especially when the compound techs benefit from mastery in both halves of their components.

And finally, talis vs rod, Same units, same buffs, same tree, same tech, same weapon attack and potential, same weapon affixes.

Rod

Spoiler!

Talis

Spoiler!

That's a 13% increase in damage per hit. More DPP, more sustained DPS. Less floor licking when you zondeel because you're at range.

[Zorak000]

polytan only needs lightning :v

anyway I think I realized what you can do with the force skill tree when the next update hits: http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skill...000dBIb0000008

you can tri-element the force tree; but you would need to give up Flame S Charge, Bolt PP Save, Photon Flare, and the third point of Rod Shot in order to pull it all off.

this tree would really only be required for quests that want you to use multiple force elements, or if you don't want to buy extra trees just yet. if you can buy trees, you could still manage to do dual-elements trees if you leave photon flare out of it. meanwhile single-element trees can just boost the crud out of flare I guess

EDIT: whoops fire kind of requires flame s charge to even function right; my bad

[milranduil]

Suit yourself mate, but I could say the same thing about you, and my points were real simple ones.

a point is not a point at all when it has no logically consistent basis, and yours has none.


@ceresa
thank you for someone else voicing reason! the only correction I have is the 155atk is a base value, so it benefits from tree, drink, and shifta (+adv) to be about 6.5% for rod and 6.9% for talis, before timed abilities. however, the point of course remains the same, flexibility and compound damage >>> 6-7% damage anywhere outside of time attack rankings.

polytan only needs lightning :v

anyway I think I realized what you can do with the force skill tree when the next update hits: http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skill...000dBIb0000008

you can tri-element the force tree; but you would need to give up Flame S Charge, Bolt PP Save, Photon Flare, and the third point of Rod Shot in order to pull it all off.

this tree would really only be required for quests that want you to use multiple force elements, or if you don't want to buy extra trees just yet. if you can buy trees, you could still manage to do dual-elements trees if you leave photon flare out of it. meanwhile single-element trees can just boost the crud out of flare I guess

then what do you do on any of the falz/darkers? lightning is great for mobbing, but not having ice mastery points for barantsion makes you pretty useless for boss dps anytime hunar/angle/dio/deus spawns.

regarding your tri-force tree, giving up flame s charge is a HUGE no-no. you might as well just dump fire entirely without s charge, that's how much it matters for fire dps. in areas you really need lightning SP (like I would use for amduscia UQ or polytan while it's still here) it'd be an ice/lightning tree.

[Zorak000]

yeah I ran the idea by another friend, and they also let me know about flame s charge. oh well.

anyway I was using Zandion on the bosses, since I was using lightning force with tri-element techer. the boosted turn radius they gave it recently makes it pretty easy to land the whole attack on them as long as you are locked on (and don't get motion sick easily)

unless swiki is wrong about it; it sounds like zandion does have enough damage to stand up with barantsion if you are landing the whole thing. oh and the invincibility makes it great for not getting killed

[milranduil]

yeah I ran the idea by another friend, and they also let me know about flame s charge. oh well.

anyway I was using Zandion on the bosses, since I was using lightning force with tri-element techer. the boosted turn radius they gave it recently makes it pretty easy to land the whole attack on them as long as you are locked on (and don't get motion sick easily)

unless swiki is wrong about it; it sounds like zandion does have enough damage to stand up with barantsion if you are landing the whole thing. oh and the invincibility makes it great for not getting killed

i agree that zandion is much better than it used to be, but barantsion's more easily targetable damage on a weak point still makes it better for hunar/dio. with the boosted enemy damage, zandion is probably fine for angel/deus though.

[Zorak000]

it's pretty messed up that fire techs need flame S charge that badly; guess that's what the ring is for I suppose

[ArcaneTechs]

man, dodged a bullet not giving class builds/advice ww

[GoldenFalcon]

I just like how the new skill will make it much better to cast spells without throwing a talis