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  1. #1


    Ok, since my other thread is long gone (I couldn't post over the weekend from home, so here I am at work and things seem to be humming along) or at least well-buried, I'm re-surfacing some of the Force chatter, Technique chatter, and I want to get some comparison results from characters with less 'Technque Damage' than the Forces.

    Now I know the manual and the web page say certain things. One thing you learn as an EQ player though - *try things out*. Work with data. The fact something 'says so' doesn't mean it's true. But it is a good place to start.

    To begin I'll address some things right off the bat from my old 'TD' thread though.. from my favorite RAcaseal Tenshi-Chan.

    And yes, all three Forces have different TD. (Mr. "Thankfully I'm here". Sheesh!) All classes differ in it except androids, who all get zip. Look at the little web chart when you make characters. They all have a different length spike on TD.
    Yeah I'm kind of glad I'm here too, just wish I could have posted earlier Happily, I'm correct. The **TP** spike is higher for the Newman forces. The **TD** is exactly the same. Take a better look. They're both on 4 notches out. I welcome any newman Force with hard numbers of their spell TP costs beating out a human forces.. or even straight damage if all other factors (like spell
    level) or possible factors (like MST) are equal. In fact I'll ask for that later.

    From here I'll go directly into Force chat. This is from starting a character and counting the 'notches' on the 'web map'.

    FOmarl AD1 AC2 HP2 Hit2 TP4 TD4
    FOnewn AD1 AC1 HP2 Hit2 TP5 TD4
    FOnewearl AD1 AC2 HP2 Hit1 TP5 TD4

    happens to be exactly the same as:

    A few things right off the bat you notice from the manual. It suggests things like the FOnewn might access techniques others can't (not true). And that FOnewearl has a lower HP value (not true from the webmap, she has a lower -to hit- value). Others have suggest higher damage or better 'technique damage' (which would be damage/TP).. also from what we can see as a base.. not true.

    Using the original stats as 'truths', one could see the following.. I'm also using max values from the Japanese MAX value chart.

    FOmarl will be better with guns quicker than FOnewearl, and their AC is better than FOnewn. I'm still a little curious about defense/evade relationships (or even if there is one) - as you might guess though even if it's only straight damage reduction, given the light hitpoints of any force, more AC is nice. Neither loss is critical, and Mags are great items to balance holes, and although dexterity moves ATA up slowly, both defense and your to hit ability can be influenced by a properly weaned mag. Where the FOmarl loses a notch in the TP department, a heavy mind mag, which is rather easy to procure, can balance her towards the TP heavies.

    Ok balance is great, but do these values hit you in the end? Actually yes.. it influences your max. Your mag/material usage/etc can only do so much. Lets look at the Force maxes, shall we?

    atp: FOmarl 483 FOnewn 463 FOnewearl 463

    Even though the webmap suggests equal damage across the board, looking at the maxes show the FOmarlcan exceed the newmen Forces in this area. This could allow weapon usage the others won't have access to, but it's unlikely to be a factor at all (particularly as it's melee related, and not based on MST like Force melee weapons.. it only comes into play if you're keying off some of the grunts hth types).

    dfp: FOmarl 290 FOnewn 290 FOneweal 290

    Ah, good news in the end for FOnewn. Starting off slower in the defensive area, a FOnewn can catch up in the end, relying on the Japenese data.

    mst: FOmarl 650 FOnewn 670 FOnewearl 670

    At least that's my guess for 'Perseverance'. Since MST directly yields TP (even though not mentioned in the instruction book) as well as spell field size, this suggests the FOmarl will never get quite as much out of a trifluid or range of a spell as a maxed FOnewn or FOnewearl. That said, considering what the max is likely to look like in terms of pure TP and range size, it'd hardly appear to be crippling or of much concern. However it's something to note. There is even a chance some technique *level(s)* are only available to FOnewn/FOnewearl, maybe even the highest weapon choice(s), but that's a question for the senior seniors. My guess is, in the end, there's not much of an issue here, but it's worth a note.

    ata: FOmarl 132 FOnewn 121 FOnewearl 120

    This ends up surprisinging a little.. where one might expect FOnewn defense to slip in the max but not here.. the reverse is true. Just like the MST value, this is unlikely to be a big deal, but there might be some guns in the range of only the FOmarl, in comparison to the other Forces. This is less of an issue to the cane/melee weapon wielding forces, however as the difficulty gets harder, personally I really only see myself using TP sucking guns or decent range damage dealers for extra hits, rather than much/anything in the melee arena. Of course some weapons I don't have access to now may change that.

    evasion - all equal, 450

    Good news to Forces, particulary the FOnewn and FOnewearl, who might have thought not having the well roundness of the FOmarl might dampen this max. Evasion so far as I've seen is a biggie.. with low hitpoints and defense for any choice, this is one I personally jump at the chance to beef up. Notably, you *cannot* 'mag up' evasion.. covet evade material and strong evade units.. at least IMO.

    luck - all equal, 100

    frosted lucky charms, they're magically delicious. From the earlier thread-

    And again, in the manual, luck is referred to as Technique Luck, therefore it has to do something with a random element of techniques.
    Luck, I think, goes up in levels so it could be the only deciding factor in a techniques special effects, but I'm not sure. I know there's Luck Material tho.
    Yeah I saw the wording, but I've noticed some small errors in the manual or simplifications (like MST = size of technique effect, it's obviously more than that, driving TP and possibly damage as well, and spell
    level is also supposed to drive this..). I'd still refrain from suggesting androids get no benefit and it effects nothing but techniques.

    However it is obvious to expect from such a write-up in the manual, even calling it technique luck, that it isn't a bad idea to beef. Luck is even more elusive (unless there is a luck unit I haven't heard of) - luck material is another one to covet.

    Well heck there's little material that isn't useful, personally I love hit material (one shot of a hit material with 2 bonus is like 4 dexterity in a Mag regards to ATA improvement.. that's 4 levels saved to a single dosage and earlier guns).

    In general.. I'd say there's not enough to make you chose a Force based on stats alone, even if you're hardcore. Yes, trifluids will flow better for the newmens in the end. But unless you're starting with a gameshark or twinked, you'll have an easier go in the beginning as a FOmarl, and enjoy a little more fun with a bit wider range of weapons. No matter how you shake it, none of the three seem to have a serious enough difference to mean quite different results later on.

    But one thing to get straight is those were just based on the chart values. Are the exactly the same, or are the 1s to 5s just representative.. just because they all show a '2' for Hitpoints.. do all Forces actually start and grow the exact same amounts? Does all having a 'TD' of '4' mean they have the exact same internal value? Well that's where one has to go deeper, with actual data.

    I've been focusing on 'TD', and I'd ask people to post their spell costs. My 'Gis' and 'Ras' cost about 21 and 30 at start, respectively and inch up as they've progressed in cost as the spell level went up. I'm *particularly* interested in hybrids results, but if Forces have noticed changes as well, please chime in.

    Here are some actuals: (spell level/cost)
    [maybe I'll get damage up here next.. but it appears MST/other factors come into play.. for spell cost it seems only spell level and potentially the 'TD' factor]

    Foie 10/8 Barta 10/10 Zonde 12/9
    Gifoie 7/24 Gibarta 9/25 Gizonde 9/25
    Rafoie 3/31 Rabarta 3/31 Razonde 5/32

    That's a good start anyways.. I'd be interested to see what others found (particularly in the gi/ra line, as that seems to be the bread and butter, particularly razonde, rafoei, and gibarta I've found key).


  2. #2


    DAmn, is that your senior thesis? j/k Nice job on the research... Think you could whip up that kind of analysis for all the classes?

  3. #3


    Wow... great job. Can you do an analysis for non-force magic users? I want to know if they can learn all magics and getting the highest level... eventually... with a mind mag of course...

  4. #4


    Ok, hybrid addendum

    [I'm too much a newb at straight melee characters yet, but I plan to change that once my FOmarl is fully immersed in online Very Hard and is spruced up a bit]

    mst: FOmarl 650 FOnewn 670 FOnewearl 670

    so lets look at the humans and newmans who've chosen non-Force professions..

    mst: RAmar 500 HUmar 590 HUnewearl 590

    Well you can certainly use all techniques, no matter what your class choice. Very apparent though is the fact ranger hybrids won't be the casting equivalent of the hunter hybrids. Where I downplayed the difference of 20 MST at high levels for the force comparison, hunter hybrids are closer to the MST of newmen forces than the ranger hybrid is to them. Where hunter hybrids will likely be denied the highest level of techniques, the ranger hybrid will feel that crunch a fair bit sooner.

    lets look at the 'magical' stat comparisons on the 'web map'.

    HUmar TP1 TD1
    RAmar TP1 TD1
    HUnewearl TP2 TD1

    Again, until I see more data/get more characters going/hear more from others, it's not totally clear how everything flushes out.

    But from the stats and maxes above, one can derive the following as a good start..

    *All* hybrids have a TD of 1. Given my review of the Force and what the manual says of TD, that suggests all hybrids should get one set of casting costs, and all Forces a different, cheaper set of casting costs. I have noted hybrids doing similiar damage to my area spells, so this makes sense. But I've also noticed my area spells seem to be covering quite a bit wider of a range.. even where they have comparable spell level, the MST seems to kick in more size, or a longer targetting ability (ie Zonde hits a more distant monster). It's tough to determine how much relies on spell level/MST there, given the fact both are often changing and measuring in PSO hasn't really been nailed down or abstracted like 'yards' in diablo2.

    But back to the hybrids..

    Hunewearl with a TP2 will give you more of a caster feel then the other 2 classes. Indeed, Hunewearls in their own right are rather competent casters. I have one in fact though in true infancy - and I was surprised to see the starting TP reasonably competent.

    So here's a snapshot of my hybrid thoughts-

    Best 'balanced' hybrid out of the gate, most able to mix it up along the way - HUnewearl
    If you have a mind mag/twink stuff/later on possibly being beefier - HUmar
    (simply because of the more physical prowress, as a HUmar can catch a HUnewearl's max.. and have those extra hps).
    To be the ultimate master of ranged combat and 'thou shalt not touch me' - RAmar

    To go further, one would have to delve more into the physical aspects, how the caps effect the grand weapons, combos of melee vs ranged wpns, different weapons in the arsenals.. and I just don't have the experience there. Again like I said before though.. nothing looks critical, even to the hardcore player. I think HUnewearl might be a more diverse trip being balanced as she is. A HUmar still maintains more of the ability to stick it out, while RAmars get the nice ability to dish out real damage without TP.. and toss in TP for area and utility fun.

    Thusfar I'm pretty impressed with the balance, and I'm kinda dying to find out if we'll get up to 18 character choices for PSO2, as it was suggested in the original interview that was their original hope.. and now we have a second one coming..

    'course I've still got a ton to do with this one


  5. #5



    I was wondering if you would wanna go adventuring with a little bit weaker character, me! I'm a FOmarl Lvl. 17, Mystariana, Blue dress brown hair... Post where you usually play if you wanna go...

  6. #6


    I usually play in the evenings EST, usually not much before 7pm, and not much later than 8-9pm as a start time.

    I tend to try and wrap up by 12-1am EST lately. One reason I haven't played EQ anymore on weeknights is trouble getting up the next day for work, and often being late, I've already done some of that with PSO lol.

    I usually go to Puck 5, though I'm going to add Puck 9 to my routinue (PSO World block). I'm on a less used ship when I have particular meet-ups planned.

    Yeah, I still would like to meet a bunch of you I've chatted with, keep an eye out for Terra Prime, a short red-headed FOmarl in a red dress Try to get 20 Mystariana and I'll take you for a whirlwind hard tour But I don't mind a little normal slaughter if need be too.


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