A Human wartecher that concentrates on techs is not Gimped..

[imfanboy]

Really? You DON'T deal 600-700 with Diga on Tengouhgs? Since when? O.o What level newman WT are you? This was back when I was only like 58/7 or so... admittedly it was with a fortetecher's 21+ Retier, but still, plenty enough damage.

I'm NOT using Foie - foie is going against a Tengouhg's elemental type so you're naturally dealing 30% less damage to it. I'd probably only deal about 250-400 with Foie against a Tengouhg, even if I had it. That sound more right to you?

Gi Technics ARE better for Human and Newman WTs than Dus Robado or Renkai Buren-zan because they hit more enemies, never miss, and hit a wider area than Robado or Renkai do. I might be doing slightly less damage, but I'm also nailing more enemies. If I had fraps, I'd film a comparison for you.

And I have a 30% Earth Seva Falsan, a 26% Earth Mukfet, and 34% Earth Nokoku-zashi's - I know all about good %s. However, they can run out of PP fast. The nice thing about Gidiga is that you can spam it a few times, take the hits they dish out with a good lightning % armor, then switch to Jinren or Rising Strike to knock the mob away and get them on the ground so you have time to Resta, then go back to Gidiga.

Ditch Gifoie, seriously. Gifoie's the least useful of the Gi technics, because SE2 burn is PATHETIC. Hell, SE3 burn is pathetic, but silly little Tra doesn't seem to like to hear that. *shrug* Get Gidiga, Gizonde, and Gibarta - that way you can be using elemental weaknesses and get a pleasant 30% boost to your damage, or at least using Gizonde and hitting them with a useful Shock SE.

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-18 22:26, imfanboy wrote:
Really? You DON'T deal 600-700 with Diga on Tengouhgs? Since when? O.o What level newman WT are you? This was back when I was only like 58/7 or so... admittedly it was with a fortetecher's 21+ Retier, but still, plenty enough damage.

I'm NOT using Foie - foie is going against a Tengouhg's elemental type so you're naturally dealing 30% less damage to it. I'd probably only deal about 250-400 with Foie against a Tengouhg, even if I had it. That sound more right to you?

Gi Technics ARE better for Human and Newman WTs than Dus Robado or Renkai Buren-zan because they hit more enemies, never miss, and hit a wider area than Robado or Renkai do. I might be doing slightly less damage, but I'm also nailing more enemies. If I had fraps, I'd film a comparison for you.

And I have a 30% Earth Seva Falsan, a 26% Earth Mukfet, and 34% Earth Nokoku-zashi's - I know all about good %s. However, they can run out of PP fast. The nice thing about Gidiga is that you can spam it a few times, take the hits they dish out with a good lightning % armor, then switch to Jinren or Rising Strike to knock the mob away and get them on the ground so you have time to Resta, then go back to Gidiga.

Ditch Gifoie, seriously. Gifoie's the least useful of the Gi technics, because SE2 burn is PATHETIC. Hell, SE3 burn is pathetic, but silly little Tra doesn't seem to like to hear that. *shrug* Get Gidiga, Gizonde, and Gibarta - that way you can be using elemental weaknesses and get a pleasant 30% boost to your damage, or at least using Gizonde and hitting them with a useful Shock SE.

I usually kill the light-element tengohs in Holy Ground.

I do have fraps, and I'll film a comparison for YOU.

Gifoie does almost as much damage as gidiga. I'm just doing a damage comparison. Gibarta doesn't ever freeze either, and is wholly outclassed by dambarta.

[SolomonGrundy]

gifoie does not damage gidiga. the damage modifiers have been posted for both spells and gidiga's is noticably higher.

Even if you add in gifoies burn 2 (which will only get applied to 1/2 the enemies byy te time they dies), it STILL would not outdamage gidiga.

I also tend to agree that gibarta is outclassed by dambarta, after level 11. However, dambarta HOGs the PP.

[Gamemako]

Gidiga does 135%. Gifoie does 130%. WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

//EDIT: At level 20, that is. It's 140% vs. 145% at level 30.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gamemako on 2007-04-19 00:23 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

Gotta look beyond the numbers Gamemako.

Check the inherent element of Gidiga - there are a lot more lightning monsters than there are ice monsters, and many of the lightning enemies are small-medium and swarm in large numbers, which gives gidiga quite an edge over gifoie. When you exploit a weakness you get a 30% boost in damage, which is nothing to sneer at (particularly for WTs, who need every point they can get!)

For a general-use Gi Technic, not going against an elemental weakness, I'd pick Gizonde every time. It has the same damage modifier as Gifoie and shock is much more useful against many small-medium enemies because it keeps them from attacking you, whereas Gifoie's Burn adds up to barely 800 more HP against even level 90 enemies. Lessee, it ticks for 9% of health... yeah, that's pretty sad against most of the smaller enemies.

I've been leveling up Gifoie and Gidiga with my FT in Linear Line and wondering, "Why was it so much easier to level Gizonde here? The stupid Deljabans keep smacking me hard! Ooh yeah... after 2 or 3 casts I would have half of them shocked even at only SE2..."

Dambarta is situational, especially in many of the wide-open areas where fire enemies spawn - Ollakas, Koltovas, or Distovas will oftentimes run right around you, the fire worms will pop up and nail you inside Dambarta's zone, Vandas will back right out of its effective area and nail you with a Diga, and the two flying small enemies have a tendancy to circle around as well. Gibarta is nice because it does hit everything around you, and if you get decent at using it you can stop a Koltova from charging you in the back and knocking you over. Dambarta is more useful than Gibarta only against the, uh, Ageeta-Naval relatives on Parum (I forget their name), and arguably Tengouhgs, especially if you manage to position yourself so you get multiple members of a single spawn.


I'm talking about using Gi Technics as a replacement for the crowd-sweeping PAs, Renkai and Robado, not solely trying to do Technic damage as a WT. That'd be just plain silly. But while Gizonde, say, may do less dps than Renkai or Robado, it also hits more enemies, has a wider AOE, does a useful SE that melee weapons lack, and saves weapon PP for more damaging PAs like Daggas and Jinren.

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-19 01:02, imfanboy wrote:
Gotta look beyond the numbers Gamemako.

Check the inherent element of Gidiga - there are a lot more lightning monsters than there are ice monsters, and many of the lightning enemies are small-medium and swarm in large numbers, which gives gidiga quite an edge over gifoie. When you exploit a weakness you get a 30% boost in damage, which is nothing to sneer at (particularly for WTs, who need every point they can get!)

For a general-use Gi Technic, not going against an elemental weakness, I'd pick Gizonde every time. It has the same damage modifier as Gifoie and shock is much more useful against many small-medium enemies because it keeps them from attacking you, whereas Gifoie's Burn adds up to barely 800 more HP against even level 90 enemies. Lessee, it ticks for 9% of health... yeah, that's pretty sad against most of the smaller enemies.

I've been leveling up Gifoie and Gidiga with my FT in Linear Line and wondering, "Why was it so much easier to level Gizonde here? The stupid Deljabans keep smacking me hard! Ooh yeah... after 2 or 3 casts I would have half of them shocked even at only SE2..."

Dambarta is situational, especially in many of the wide-open areas where fire enemies spawn - Ollakas, Koltovas, or Distovas will oftentimes run right around you, the fire worms will pop up and nail you inside Dambarta's zone, Vandas will back right out of its effective area and nail you with a Diga, and the two flying small enemies have a tendancy to circle around as well. Gibarta is nice because it does hit everything around you, and if you get decent at using it you can stop a Koltova from charging you in the back and knocking you over. Dambarta is more useful than Gibarta only against the, uh, Ageeta-Naval relatives on Parum (I forget their name), and arguably Tengouhgs, especially if you manage to position yourself so you get multiple members of a single spawn.


I'm talking about using Gi Technics as a replacement for the crowd-sweeping PAs, Renkai and Robado, not solely trying to do Technic damage as a WT. That'd be just plain silly. But while Gizonde, say, may do less dps than Renkai or Robado, it also hits more enemies, has a wider AOE, does a useful SE that melee weapons lack, and saves weapon PP for more damaging PAs like Daggas and Jinren.

Straw man 101.

My argument has never been "I can use gifoie against a lightning enemy and do as much damage as gidiga!" How about this number: grab an ice enemy and GIFOIE does more damage! Ho ho! And oh dear, lord knows we bring status effects into a damage discussion. Last time I checked, this thread was about tech damage versus melee damage (i.e. the reason teching human wartechers are gimped). That is, it had absolutely nothing to do with a discussion of why you think gifoie sucks. But if you want talk about status effects, here's a question for you:

Would you spend 200 wand PP and 100 weapon PP to kill a group in 20 seconds when you could do it with 200 weapon PP in 10 seconds?

That's your tradeoff for using the wand: it takes longer and eats PP just to end up with a bit more weapon PP (which you don't use because you're teching). Here's a more grounded comparison: I can radiga three enemies for 800 total or I can Buten the same group for 300 per hit -- maybe 4000 total damage. You're not even in the same league. You can gidiga them for 200 apiece -- 1000 damage total. Do it four times to get the same damage which takes longer and eats 120 wand PP versus 32 dagger PP for Buten. Now tell me, which is more effective: more damage for less PP at a faster rate or less damage slower for more PP? And once again, this comparison is from a NEWMAN, meaning it's even further in favor of the dagger for a human.

[-Asheth-]

If you where buten them wouldnt you only be hitting 2 enemies with your pa consistently? Also after said pa is finished your entire enemy group will scatter so you will then more than likely have to buten each one individually. Im not saying that melee isnt good but I cant see melee buff and debuff occasional heal as the only way to play wt and only techs a wt should use. Because that is all anyone is saying.

Dont use techs you can dps everything with Renkai even jarbas. Oh but then you can pull out the bow.

Debuff that robot then fight him. Run grove thinking your melee will be effective. Its not. Decent lightning tech will out damage. Might burn pp but is anyone really bothered by recharging weaps. If you are soloing your gonna burn it all anyway. Money isnt really that big of a deal with the S2 labs avail.

You basically saying dont tech at all. That there is a case that all your melee be effective if not use bow. That will cover you the whole time every situation, every mission. I dont think so.

Plus debuff costs pp and takes time. so add that to your melee Pa everytime you use it.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-04-19 04:33 ]</font>

[Gamemako]

On 2007-04-19 04:18, -Asheth- wrote:
If you where buten them wouldnt you only be hitting 2 enemies with your pa consistently? Also after said pa is finished your entire enemy group will scatter so you will then more than likely have to buten each one individually. Im not saying that melee isnt good but I cant see melee buff and debuff occasional heal as the only way to play wt and only techs a wt should use. Because that is all anyone is saying.

Dont use techs you can dps everything with Renkai even jarbas. Oh but then you can pull out the bow.

Debuff that robot then fight him. Run grove thinking your melee will be effective. Its not. Decent lightning tech will out damage. Might burn pp but is anyone really bothered by recharging weaps. If you are soloing your gonna burn it all anyway. Money isnt really that big of a deal with the S2 labs avail.

You basically saying dont tech at all. That there is a case that all your melee be effective if not use bow. That will cover you the whole time every situation, every mission. I dont think so.

Plus debuff costs pp and takes time. so add that to your melee Pa everytime you use it.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-04-19 04:33 ]</font>

Takes a little practice, but I can miss entirely or hit only one enemy with the last hit of Buten just about every time I use it. Most hits have a 360-degree radius, but that last swing doesn't. It's in front of your char and nowhere else. So you just twist your body and whiff that last strike and then hop right back into Buten. If you hit with every strike of Buten, you'd do 6000 damage total, but it's not worth trying. The second swing of Buten hits three enemies four times, by the way, not two enemies. Just navigate it through the center of a mob and cut yourself a path to miss.

I hear you saying that you're a tech-based WT. Which means you tech more than you melee (what was your ratio, 60/40?) and that's just an immensely bad idea. You are simply gimping your damage to say, "oooh, purrty spell!"

Madoogs will make wartechers more capable of teching, but for now, running around with four slots taken up by one-handers and green pistols (because you can't hit the broad side of a barn with an elemental) is just plain silly.

You don't have to debuff to deal more damage with melee PAs than with techs. Debuffs just increase the advantage.

Oh, and Grove is made for fTs. Melee-resistant opponents and bots that explode and injure melee attackers. Of course you'll tech a lot doing grove. And if you're like me and refuse to cheat by participating in the hacked economy of the PC version, you'll burn your PP in all of your wands and lose money in the endeavor because it costs more to recharge your wands than you get back over the course of the mission -- and money not hacked is not easy to come by.

[-Asheth-]

Oh, and Grove is made for fTs. Melee-resistant opponents and bots that explode and injure melee attackers. Of course you'll tech a lot doing grove. And if you're like me and refuse to cheat by participating in the hacked economy of the PC version, you'll burn your PP in all of your wands and lose money in the endeavor because it costs more to recharge your wands than you get back over the course of the mission -- and money not hacked is not easy to come by.

Im on 360 and the economy isnt hacked but I do enough daily seabed runs that recharge at the PP recharge point is not really nothing. The only time that I spent alot of money recharging was my days as a Figunner. Now i average anywhere from 600-900 But i keep about 5 photon rechargers on me. But I can go in the grove and do ok and at the same time pick up 7*+ wands and bows in the process (when they drop lol) But there is no party that I cant be apart of. I agree 60/40 Is really heavy when I reassessed my playstyle I realized that it really depends on the party so I guess 50/50 is more appropriate but I cant really quantify it because it is really party dependent.

[SolomonGrundy]

Takes a little practice, but I can miss entirely or hit only one enemy with the last hit of Buten just about every time I use it. Most hits have a 360-degree radius, but that last swing doesn't. It's in front of your char and nowhere else. So you just twist your body and whiff that last strike and then hop right back into Buten. If you hit with every strike of Buten, you'd do 6000 damage total, but it's not worth trying. The second swing of Buten hits three enemies four times, by the way, not two enemies. Just navigate it through the center of a mob and cut yourself a path to miss.

I hear you saying that you're a tech-based WT. Which means you tech more than you melee (what was your ratio, 60/40?) and that's just an immensely bad idea. You are simply gimping your damage to say, "oooh, purrty spell!"

Madoogs will make wartechers more capable of teching, but for now, running around with four slots taken up by one-handers and green pistols (because you can't hit the broad side of a barn with an elemental) is just plain silly.

You don't have to debuff to deal more damage with melee PAs than with techs. Debuffs just increase the advantage.

Oh, and Grove is made for fTs. Melee-resistant opponents and bots that explode and injure melee attackers. Of course you'll tech a lot doing grove. And if you're like me and refuse to cheat by participating in the hacked economy of the PC version, you'll burn your PP in all of your wands and lose money in the endeavor because it costs more to recharge your wands than you get back over the course of the mission -- and money not hacked is not easy to come by.

I am on 360, and using B rank wands, and ground C rank wands on C class missions. I am 100% tech, and my recharge costs do not exceed what I earn in the missions.

I find groups swarm in numbers 4 or greater (and I use Gi spells), or there is a mixed group, consisting of 4-6 minor threats, and one larger threat (ageetas/tengogh).

The toughest thing I face is kings...since they heal, and it's difficult to keep them down with techs, due to speed, and a lack of juggling capability on my part (I need to learn rising strike)