PSU: Umm .. hi .. Fortegunner

[The_Brimada]

I remember that PA...good times

[imfanboy]

I'm surprised you even go to Neudaiz, Cherry. What with all the tech-resistant enemies slowing you down...

Mmm, ult PAs, eh? Well, cards got hosed for that one, no question. The ult crossbow PA is definitely top-notch for pure DPS.

But compare regular crossbow bullets to card bullets, and the card wins. *sigh* Once again, you lose the forest for that tree of DPS you seek so highly. I can deal 325 a hit as a 80/10 female newman guntecher with cards, do it safely with high health, do it from a good distance, and not drain 8+ crossbows a run - and that's as literally the weakest class for DPS.

HOWEVER, that isn't the point of crossbows; the point of crossbows is to be able to apply powerful SE effects and do it FAST. I'd much ruther be able to spread SE3 Confuse over a mob than let them keep blasting me with Barta, especially if my HP is down in the yellow and an unlucky movement or a bit of lag could make me waste a scape.

Of course, that's just my OPINION; unlike some other folks currently in this thread I don't try to tell you that there's only one right way to play this game. I think the best thing about the game is that there are so many right ways to play, and so few wrong ones.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-05-06 01:29 ]</font>

[Tra]

On 2007-05-06 01:28, imfanboy wrote:
I'm surprised you even go to Neudaiz, Cherry. What with all the tech-resistant enemies slowing you down...

Mmm, ult PAs, eh? Well, cards got hosed for that one, no question. The ult crossbow PA is definitely top-notch for pure DPS.

But compare regular crossbow bullets to card bullets, and the card wins. *sigh* Once again, you lose the forest for that tree of DPS you seek so highly. I can deal 325 a hit as a 80/10 female newman guntecher with cards, do it safely with high health, do it from a good distance, and not drain 8+ crossbows a run - and that's as literally the weakest class for DPS.

HOWEVER, that isn't the point of crossbows; the point of crossbows is to be able to apply powerful SE effects and do it FAST. I'd much ruther be able to spread SE3 Confuse over a mob than let them keep blasting me with Barta, especially if my HP is down in the yellow and an unlucky movement or a bit of lag could make me waste a scape.

Of course, that's just my OPINION; unlike some other folks currently in this thread I don't try to tell you that there's only one right way to play this game. I think the best thing about the game is that there are so many right ways to play, and so few wrong ones.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-05-06 01:29 ]</font>

You're right; Sophia can hit 350s with her other crossbow PAs.


350 x 80 x 3 hits per minute divided by 60 seconds = whoops 1400dps


if cards do 400 each

400 x 60 x 3 hits per minute divided by 60 seconds = oh wow 1200dps

Oh and you're right, crossbows are also very nice at status effects! just look at those frosty ollakas in admiration!


It's only lv25 btw



now stop being so fucking dense.

[SolomonGrundy]

Tra's evalaution also supposed 100% hit rate (no '0'), and that each bullet finds a home. Also, please do not bring cards/bow into this discussion, this is fortegunning 101, not bullet arts 101.

Let's not get into squabling, though...


To make a fair evaluation one has to consider 'real world' scenarios.

For instance, when it comes to the status effect 'shock' shotgun & crossbow are superiour to machine guns, or twin handguns for reasons that should be plain.

For an SE like burn, or virus, it is rifle & crossbow that are the winners, as higher DOT > other factors.

Special weapons like the grenade laucher are for specific instances of crowd control. This is not a staple, but more a gun that sits on your pallette until one particualr spawn, or boss fight occurs, then it is the only gun for the job.

Regarding twin handguns. They are versatile, and thus usefull. They pack significantly more PP than crossbows, fire in first person mode like rifles, highly elemental (and therefore damaging), and well ranged.
>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-05-06 03:44 ]</font>

[Hrith]

lol big numbarz mean I'm the best player in the game, amirite?

Anyone saying Rifles are not to be used on a Fortegunner is an absolute and complete n00b.
Twin Handguns are EXTREMELY overrated. It's a good weapon type, but it's far from vital to a Fortegunner. I don't use Twin Handguns at all on my Fortegunner, and I've yet to see another fG kill faster (and I have played with Sophia several times, who's one of the best fG out there).
Crossbows and Shotguns have higher DPS. Rifles have very long range, enough to hit monsters from a totally safe spot.
Traps are only good on shielded monsters, on other monsters, Rifles, Crossbows or Handguns will land a status ailment in no time, saving a trap, of which you can only carry so few.

Also, unless you're always soloing, you have to keep in mind Fortegunner is a support class, if you want to be a main-damage class, maybe you got the wrong class, then. Even if Fortegunner can pull out a good DPS, if you're not helping your team, you're a bad Fortegunner. Laser Cannons, Grenade Launchers and SE weapons (Rifle, Handgun, Crossbow) are needed for supporting.
If you concentrate on dealing damage with your Fortegunner (Twin Handguns, Machineguns) while playing in a team, then you suck at being a Fortegunner.

A good way to spot mediocre Fortegunners is the ones who carry only two or three different weapon types.

Good players use a wide variety of weapons to adapt to any situation in the best possible way

[The_Brimada]

On 2007-05-06 02:28, Tra wrote:

On 2007-05-06 01:28, imfanboy wrote:
I'm surprised you even go to Neudaiz, Cherry. What with all the tech-resistant enemies slowing you down...

Mmm, ult PAs, eh? Well, cards got hosed for that one, no question. The ult crossbow PA is definitely top-notch for pure DPS.

But compare regular crossbow bullets to card bullets, and the card wins. *sigh* Once again, you lose the forest for that tree of DPS you seek so highly. I can deal 325 a hit as a 80/10 female newman guntecher with cards, do it safely with high health, do it from a good distance, and not drain 8+ crossbows a run - and that's as literally the weakest class for DPS.

HOWEVER, that isn't the point of crossbows; the point of crossbows is to be able to apply powerful SE effects and do it FAST. I'd much ruther be able to spread SE3 Confuse over a mob than let them keep blasting me with Barta, especially if my HP is down in the yellow and an unlucky movement or a bit of lag could make me waste a scape.

Of course, that's just my OPINION; unlike some other folks currently in this thread I don't try to tell you that there's only one right way to play this game. I think the best thing about the game is that there are so many right ways to play, and so few wrong ones.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-05-06 01:29 ]</font>

You're right; Sophia can hit 350s with her other crossbow PAs.


350 x 80 x 3 hits per minute divided by 60 seconds = whoops 1400dps


if cards do 400 each

400 x 60 x 3 hits per minute divided by 60 seconds = oh wow 1200dps

Oh and you're right, crossbows are also very nice at status effects! just look at those frosty ollakas in admiration!


It's only lv25 btw



now stop being so fucking dense.

QFT, being a long time xbow user myself I've seen this proof firsthand.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-05-06 05:47, Hrith wrote:
lol big numbarz mean I'm the best player in the game, amirite?

Anyone saying Rifles are not to be used on a Fortegunner is an absolute and complete n00b.
Twin Handguns are EXTREMELY overrated. It's a good weapon type, but it's far from vital to a Fortegunner. I don't use Twin Handguns at all on my Fortegunner, and I've yet to see another fG kill faster (and I have played with Sophia several times, who's one of the best fG out there).

Twins are a utility weapon. And they will outdamage a rifle at high levels of play vs non bullet resistant enemies when using cold, ground, electric, and light. You know the damage formula, and we can compare total ATP. What rifles offer is security of distance (at the expense of mobility)

Crossbows and Shotguns have higher DPS. Rifles have very long range, enough to hit monsters from a totally safe spot.
Traps are only good on shielded monsters, on other monsters, Rifles, Crossbows or Handguns will land a status ailment in no time, saving a trap, of which you can only carry so few.

shotguns seem situational, great in larger party (4+), awkward otherwise.

Also, unless you're always soloing, you have to keep in mind Fortegunner is a support class, if you want to be a main-damage class, maybe you got the wrong class, then

.

Disagree. A fire/virus-crossbow and the right melee weapons (and traps), keeps ForteGunners competitive with FiGunners

Even if Fortegunner can pull out a good DPS, if you're not helping your team, you're a bad Fortegunner.

I agree with this, though, darn skippy.

Laser Cannons, Grenade Launchers and SE weapons (Rifle, Handgun, Crossbow) are needed for supporting.

Second time you mentioned handgun. Is there a reason why you are using them? Crossbows beat them in everyway possible, excpet maybe accuracy.

A good way to spot mediocre Fortegunners is the ones who carry only two or three different weapon types.

or ones that use freeze rifles when others are applying fire. Or ones that don't communitcate when a trap is being dropped (so others don't drop a conflicting trap, or a duplicate trap).



@Tra: it takes a lot of guts to run around level 85 enemies at that low health (I'm guessing that's 400ish HP). Are you saying that a fire crossbow would not do close to the same damage?

[imfanboy]

I don't consider it being, ah, "fucking dense" at all. After all, I use both cards and crossbows as my stock in trade every day as a guntecher; do you even allow hybrid classes in your precious DPS-only games?

I've seen a caseal guntecher at 80/10 with a solid/power S (that seeming to be our base to work from here, a rather ridiculous one because not everyone's 80/10 with a solid/power S) hit with level 30 cards at 425-450. Even counting your silly assumption that DPS was all, 450 x 60 x 3 / 60 = 1350.

I don't have that card I was using as a comparison for damage at level 30, you see. More like level 18. AND I'm only using 8* cards as compared to my 9* crossbows.

Somehow, I don't see cards as losing out. They might be more even than I thought when it comes to DPS, but since it only takes about 10 seconds to kill even an S-rank monster (if that) I don't see the difference being world-shattering. Most of the time on levels is spent walking around, not killing monsters. XD

The homing properties means that I can theoretically NEVER have a wasted bullet as well, whereas crossbows, unless you're in melee range or firing at a huge mob, send at least one bullet off into never-never land - and melee range has its own dangers, especially for gunners.

Crossbows are good, stipulated; otherwise I never would have synthed 9*s and use them every day. But there are some situations that call for them and some that don't. They also have an advantage when using the same-element bullets, like using fire bullets to set fire monsters burning, because of the lower elemental %.

What is your E-peen obsession with DPS anyway, Tra? Why don't you just order your friend with the caseal to erase her and make her fortegunner a beast male, since that would do the most damage? Who cares about the occasional miss, as long as you have TEH BIG NUMBARS???


But for the purposes of the fortegunner, I'd say that crossbows are better than shotguns. They're a lot harder to work up without using AFK leveling, it's true; but you can melee while using one, the SE is better, and it's a lot more mobile. I've had a shotgun bullet at level 30 for, well, ever; but I never use it since i have crossbows. If you have the patience to AFK level (and the time) that'd be the best, overall.

Crossbows being so difficult to level without using that little trick, however, I'd recommend at minimum the light bullet and either the fire or dark bullet - one for spreading an DoT SE over a mob, and the other for dealing with spellcasters and other annoying buggers. Don't worry so much about DPS; unless you're solo the hunters and yes, the forces will be dishing out plenty of damage. Instead, try to use SEs that will protect those hunters and forces from being damaged, or that will help them speed up your run in a way they can't do, like putting an SE4 burn on Tengouhgs.

[Sophia]

umm kef how can you say im one of the best fortegunners and then say fortegunners who focus on dealing damage suck? u_u Since you have played with me you should know thats what i do mainly I dunno i just dont see the point of losing out on alot of damage just so i can use support like shock and silence... i think usually its more helpful to just kill stuff and make runs go faster. A dead enemy is better than a shocked enemy i think xD Really, if you are playing in a good team you wont need support SEs.

A fortegunner is basically there to help kill stuff that other classes arent as fast at killing like jarbas and tengohgs, with no such enemies around you will still be better off with just dealing damage(500x3 with yak zagenga, 350x3 with regular xbow, 340 with mechs and 350x10 with shotgun if you hit right inbetween 2 enemies which isnt really that hard) rather than using support SEs..

And i dont think anyone said not to use rifles at all on fortegunner, they are good in some situations and on some bosses and killer shot is awesome on the small robots. Still, even with the range you wont be able to outdamage most other weapons in other situations. As for level 4 SEs i dont think they are really that helpful.. burn 4 i use on gol do va cause he has kinda low sta but on other enemies that would be worth burning they usually die before you get it to connect better to use a trap and then use another weapon imo.

Also if you havent seen another fortegunner kill faster than you id love to see you make a vid and kill two lv 85 tengohgs faster than i did in the video posted before you should do it at 1 hp as well even if you dont use yak zagenga ;3

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-05-06 11:48, Sophia wrote:
umm kef how can you say im one of the best fortegunners and then say fortegunners who focus on dealing damage suck? u_u Since you have played with me you should know thats what i do mainly I dunno i just dont see the point of losing out on alot of damage just so i can use support like shock and silence... i think usually its more helpful to just kill stuff and make runs go faster. A dead enemy is better than a shocked enemy i think xD Really, if you are playing in a good team you wont need support SEs.

A fortegunner is basically there to help kill stuff that other classes arent as fast at killing like jarbas and tengohgs, with no such enemies around you will still be better off with just dealing damage(500x3 with yak zagenga, 350x3 with regular xbow, 340 with mechs and 350x10 with shotgun if you hit right inbetween 2 enemies which isnt really that hard) rather than using support SEs..

And i dont think anyone said not to use rifles at all on fortegunner, they are good in some situations and on some bosses and killer shot is awesome on the small robots. Still, even with the range you wont be able to outdamage most other weapons in other situations. As for level 4 SEs i dont think they are really that helpful.. burn 4 i use on gol do va cause he has kinda low sta but on other enemies that would be worth burning they usually die before you get it to connect better to use a trap and then use another weapon imo.

Also if you havent seen another fortegunner kill faster than you id love to see you make a vid and kill two lv 85 tengohgs faster than i did in the video posted before you should do it at 1 hp as well even if you dont use yak zagenga ;3

Shock was the first xbow bullet I got to level 21+ Sure, in a party where everyone is 80 then there are no worries and everything dies quick-like.

I'm level 56, and everything does NOT die real quick-like. Lets say is will take 20 seconds for a grounp of enemies to die. (olaka, forex), I would rather shock them, and have my companions be able to able to attack, AND without them able to attack back, then have them die in 15 seconds, and have several hundred points of damage be spread out.

Now, in the above case, ice works real nice as SE3 freeze will do more damage and restrict movement of not only the frozen enemy, but surrounding enemies ass well. However shock works well with fire, and ice does not, and I play with a ra/gi foie happy fT, so I am giving being party friendly.

Light crossbow, and kiler shot should make soloing Grove a joke. The robots there ONLY use techs, so...