How useful is Hishou Jinren-zan (ult twin dagger art)?

[MrNomad]

I dont know, spirals use seems unnecessary to me in all occasions, besides I dont need a multipurpose PA since I only use an ice dbl sabr

[Ryoki]

Guess what I use?

Ice crea doubles.
Fire enemies range from giant jarbas, to tiny badiras, to enemies that roll, like Koltova, fast ones like distova. It's better on single enemies, too.

[Freshellent]

If I have to explain to all you people why Spiral is better than all the other Double Saber arts in most situations,I'm gonna be really sad.

Props to Ryoki for figuring it out. Spiral is superior. You can do just about anything with Spiral with the right placement. Seems to me Gravity lovers just like to stand around spamming the art watching the pretty numbers pop up.

Believe me when I say,SPIRAL IS THE BEST DOUBLE SABER ART. It can be used for single targets,mobs,bosses,stun locking,increasing your e-peen. I can't stress this enough.

That is until Absolute Dance comes out. Which I have no idea does,it just sounds outstanding.

Back to the dagger art. I have negative opinions about HZ because I feel it looks absurd,has long recovery and suffers from lack of mobility.
HOWEVER,it can be VERY useful on Pola's,Jarbas, Anything that's big,stands around and can get hit a lot. I just can't seem to recomend using it on small mobs.

[MrNomad]

Bah, its just like Dus daggas compared to Robado, spiral seems more like a pp sink thanks to it constantly knocking enemies around the place, at least with gravity I can work on a group for more damage and not waste time knocking them around > >

[Freshellent]

You wouldn't have that problem if you knew where to place it...

Also,I'd rather use Robado over Gravity. In fact,I do.

Regardless,I've said my piece. You get my point,I get yours.

[MrNomad]

Ya, I dont need spiral, any usefulness it has is done better by rising strike or the ult twin dagger pa. I use robado but the only problem is when im not spamming PAs and use normal attacks the spears normal attack isnt very good, thats where my dbl sabr with gravity dance comes in, GGPO

[Gen2000]

On 2007-08-27 12:50, PJ wrote:

On 2007-08-27 12:38, Gen2000 wrote:
Hishou Jinren-zan is just a Rising Crush wannabe. RC provides much better stunlocking and mob control via launching if that's mainly what you were looking for. Get Hishou if you just want a flashy, less useful and damaging version of RC.

They both launch, and HJZ does it faster, and on every hit after the third one. Rising Crush on the other hand only launches on one hit, flinchs and blows away respectively on the other two.

So if its a competition of launching, RC is a HJZ wannabe. But thats a stupid thing to say, since they're both good PAs.

Edit: And while I'm at it...

Bucaneer: 595 ATP x 1.6(RC) x 8(Targets/hits) = 7616
Katsuno-zashi: 202 ATP x 1.7(HJZ) x 24 = 8214.6

That of course means nothing but the total Att of all the hits for each PA, and it doesn't even factor in elements, but clearly HZJ is more damaging, unless all you care about is BIG NUMBARS, which, yes, RC wins at.


I'm not even normally a stat cruncher, nor do I even give a shit really, but I hate when people assume a some of the frag PAs are bad just cause they're flashing too

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PJ on 2007-08-27 12:58 ]</font>

There is barely any difference in launch speed between the two, HZJ launchers the 3rd hit out of 3 and RC launchers on the 2nd hit out of 2.

But anyway my post wasn't even about stat crunching, it's just a simple fact that HZJ is an RC clone that looks pretty. Being a clone isn't bad but just letting the OP know before it gets it and expect something amazing when you can get a similiar PA (and overall better) for just 1K (or whatever it's cheap as hell) out of the shop. If the idea of sharp yo-yos interest you then by all means get HZJ. Twin Saber's RC is part of the big 3 melee PAs that makes for copypasta effective melees so it's nice to see people with different combos every now and then getting similiar results.

While HZJ comes close to RC in most categories it will never touch it in stunlocking, RC and Spiral Dance are the kings of that (besides Mayalee Fury of course).


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gen2000 on 2007-08-27 23:53 ]</font>

[Hrith]

lol, time to pwn some real n00bs.

How is Rising Crush any better at stunlocking than Hishou Jinren-zan while the former has less hits, less juggle effects, and several vulnerability frames?
Hishou Jinren-zan has no vulverability frame, is quicker, and more powerful.

I'm not even comparing Hishou Jinren-zan to Spiral Dance for stunlocking, Spiral Dance sucks too much for that (or for anything, really).

Seeing the number of hits, the number of hits that actually do stun, and the speed of the PA, Hishou Jinren-zan is a lot better than any other melee skill at stunlocking.

Rising Crush also has an annoying knockback hit on the last part, Hishou Jinren-zan does not, it only juggles, which makes it less annoying if you happen to use it on small-medium monsters.

And for people playing Guargians Colony missions, know that SEED monsters do not get pushed back by Hishou Jinren-zan, which makes it a killer PA in these missions.

Did I mention Hishou Jinren-zan is more powerful than Rising Crush? And even more so than Spiral Dance?



And for the atrocious n00bs who think Spiral Dance is a good PA, it looks like you have never even taken the time to do proper testing, so watch and learn:

-Lv80/10 human female Fighgunner
-38% light Crea Doubles
-Mega / Power
-Unsafe Passage A, Lv30 Pannon (Linear Line C or B monsters cannot take a full combo)

The weapon:



The PAs:





The damage:
Spiral Dance





Gravity Dance





Tornado Dance



The maths:

Spiral Dance
315 x 6 = 1890
400 x 4 = 1600
565 x 6 = 3390
1890 + 1600 + 3390 = 6880
6880 / 4.7 = 1464 DPS

Gravity Dance
325 x 8 = 2600
475 x 6 = 2850
785 x 3 = 2355
2600 + 2850 + 2355 = 7805
7805 / 5.3 = 1473 DPS

Tornado Dance
480 x 8 = 3840
3840 / 1.8 = 2133 DPS


The higher the damage gets, the more Gravity Dance gets an edge in damage over Spiral Dance.


And the irrelevant part lots of people like to refer to:
Spiral Dance 1464 / 45 = 32.5 damage per PP for one second.
Gravity Dance 1473 / 60 = 24.5 damage per PP for one second.
Tornado Dance 2133 / 34 = 62.7 damage per PP for one second.
This is mostly irrelevant when playing, anyway, Anga Redda, Shousen Totsuzan-ga, Gravity Strike, Hisou Jinren-zan, Assault Crush and Dus Robado are very good PAs, despite the PP cost.


So what was Spiral Dance good for, again?
-Small and medium-sized monsters = Gravity Dance is by far better, no knockback + higher DPS = bye bye Spiral Dance.
-Big monsters = Tornado Dance has a much higher DPS, and offers much less chance of counterattacking to the monster.
-Stunlocking = seeing the high number of vulnerability frames Spiral Dance has, Hishou Jinren-zan and Rising Crush are both much better moves for stunlocking, all while dealing higher damage.


And I'm not even mentioning that Gravity Dance has 10% more ATA, on a weapon type with low ATA, this is most useful.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-08-28 04:46 ]</font>

[Syl]

Damage doesn't mean anything at all if it means you will be making yourself vulnerable (besides, using an example on PANNONS? That seems... somewhat retarded >_>)

I'm no hunter, but I do know when I used Gravity Dance before, I got smacked a lot.

Remember, the higher the weapons %, the higher the difference between the PA's damage will be. Also, each PA has its own situations were it would be plain retarded to us said PA (like why would you use Gravity one one mob >.>).

Anyways, it's all up to the player. Stats mean nothing in this game if you can't make the best of what you have/use.

I don't even know what my point is, just posting to post.

[Hrith]

On 2007-08-28 04:56, SylviaEspada wrote:
I don't even know what my point is, just posting to post.

We noticed.