Duping vs. Stealing

[Mun-KEE]

So... this was going on over in the trade forum, and I thought it belonged here... also I am very curious on your guys opinions.

Somebody had said something about duping an item. And everyone jumped down his throat saying that duping is the lowest of the low, etc. I agree until this next statement.

Duping is worse than stealing.

What?!?!? So I post a reply stating that I felt stealing is much worse than duping ever could be.

So, if the item that I traded a hard earned item turns out to be a dupe, does that HURT me? No! It is still hard earned (for me) as the methods that I used to get it were legit and difficult. If the duper still has his/her item, and that is what gives him/her their jollies, then more power to em. I got what I wanted. And I am happy. But... if then someone then STOLE the item that I just earned, thus depriving me of it, depriving me of MY FUN and HARD EARNED stuff, I think I would be a tad bit more pissed. At least when someone else dupes it doesnt affect my game that much.

The argument that people were using to say duping is worse doesnt make sense to me. They say that it ruins the rarity of an item. This is true, but it hasnt really been a huge impact (I think). I am sure that spread needles are pretty duped by now, but you know what? I can still count on one hand the number of people I have seen use one. That still seems pretty rare to me.

And another thing... people always seem to assume that a low level (20 and up) guy w/ a rare item is a duper. This is not true. I just gave my RAcast a stag cutlery I got last night. Why did I give it to him? Cuz the force I have will never be able to use it. And the ranger can. So why should I just get rid of it? Heck, I usually give "rares" like db sabers and Varistas (or crush bullets, etc.) To new guys just to be nice... tells them saves em the trouble of having to find it later. And if they dont want it, wanna find it on their own, a) GREAT! More power to ya!, and b) I dont get offended or anything. If there is a low level guy w/ a weapon to big for their britches, and it pisses you off that they are just too strong... then go play in another game. Its not like games are hard to find, much less open slots in them.

In the end, this is just my opinion, and I think that as long as what someone else does doesnt deprive me of my fun, I can look elsewhere. It sucks that it is happening, but what can we do about it? Nothing. I mean, geeze, I cant even tell if an item I trade for is duped. And in the end? I decided that I dont care. As long as someone isnt duping right in front of my face, I wont know, and I dont want to know. This game is a blast. If it comes down to it, I will play password only games w/ my trusted friends.

[Ambrai]

Yes it does hurt everyone. Duping floods the market with that perticular item and therefore reduces the value of it. Some people would love to see that. It's the old druid motto: Phat l33t, no work.

[ScaraB]

Yep. Duping affects everyone that cares about rare items - which is a large percentage of players. Sure you may not see a lot of spread needles or the like now, but every week there will be more and more.

Stealing? This may sound harsh but if you get an item stolen its usually your own damn fault, either through trading with someone you don't know, or playing in a high risk environment - again, a game where you don't know people and you're not strong enough to avoid getting killed. Duping affects everyone no matter what they do, aside from playing and trading only within a select group of people dedicated to playing the game fairly. Which is pretty much what I try to do. I haven't played a game with strangers in a long time.

[Draekkan]

What happens when you dupe items? They appear everywhere, and sometimes that is not good.

A few weeks ago, while playing some online games, I was having a blast with the teams that would join up. Then, some lvl 35 char appears with a Spread Needle. He managed to kill every monster in the room before any of us touched them. So where did the fun of the game go? Out as soon as that kid joined. And does it hurt? Yes, because for those moments (before I left) I wasn't getting ANY XP. I was wasting my time, and my only function was to open the door to the next room. Sometimes they will put the gun down when told it cheapens the game, sometimes they don't. And why did he get such a rare gun in the first place? Most likely someone duped it a hundred fold and started giving them out.

So I left the room and created another. Guess what? Some other kid does the exact same thing. I wish Sega would have scrapped that gun completely.

[Mun-KEE]

Okay -

I see your point and concede that duping is bad and in a roundabout way does hurt me. But the way that I look at it is this. I do have an option for the dupe stuff. Dont play w/ them. Use passwords. Play w/ people you know are legit (like the ones on this board). But if you are stolen from, what options do I have?

None. Or sinking to their level and duping myself. Neither of those are attractive options.

ScaraB I agree w/ you on most points. You do have the ability to not be stolen from. I usually play in passworded games w/ people I trust. But last night I didnt. And man was I nervous. A friend and I were in a game, and people would jump in and out. I am lv 80 friend 94. funny enough, most joiners to the game were lv 100. They would come in, and first ask if we have rare items for trade (actually was I want an Egg Blaster! or Spread Needle or something of the like), then beat one boss w/ us and leave. At this point I unequiped my Soul Eater +35... I know that it is not crazy rare, but would sure be upset to lose it. Luckily I am a force so I can fight weaponless... but my friend is a Racaseal. She was only using Crush Bullet of which she has a fair number. So I know how to avoid being stolen from, and I have yet to be stolen from.

Anyway, I think you guys missed the point I was asking. I am curious if you guys think that Duping is WORSE than stealing. That is the point I debating. They are both bad, and both can lower the quality of my gaming expirience. But, I feel that I have more control of duping, since if a lamer w/ duped spread needles comes in and kills everything, I can leave. If someone steals my stuff, I am SOL. Since I cant use that item anymore, there is no way to fix it.

Please, post your replies... and remember, this is just all opinion. If everyone just agrees w/ what I said, it would make it a very boring post... which is why I hope you guys have some cool facts/theories that may swing my opinion to match yours...

[ScaraB]

I guess I wasn't too clear in my post - yes I do think duping is FAR worse than stealing.

I think, you may find this crazy, that stealing in a way adds to the game. I like the fact that when dealing with people you can be basically a "bad guy" if you so choose. To me, it makes the game more interesting. The fact that you have the freedom of expression to make your character either a sneaky rascal, or a generous do-gooder. Sure it sucks to get something stolen - I did one time when I was lower level, I traded with a guy I didn't know and he ran off with my stuff. I learned my lesson, hehe, thats for sure. But isn't it cool when you find people that are helpful, and resurrect and heal you, and offer you weapons or items they can't use? To me, it makes the good guys more real, because the option exists to be a jerk. If no one could steal, if there was a failsafe trading system and you dropped nothing when you die - well, then everyone would be honorable by default, not out of choice.

Maybe you don't agree, but I think stealing from dead bodies and ripping people off in trades makes the game more interesting - like you said, you were playing with people you didn't know - and you were NERVOUS - it almost makes your items more valuable to you if you know there's a chance they could be stolen if you die - it makes you more careful. It gives an heightened edge to trading if you don't quite trust someone - to me, anything that heightens your emotional attachment to a game is good.

I think I explained before why duping is not so fun. Part of the fun for high level characters is of course looking for those really rare items. You put in the time, and eventually you are rewarded. Duping negates the time and effort and value of rare items by flooding the 'market' so to speak with way more copies of certain weapons than were ever intended. Staying within a circle of non-dupers mitigates the problem a little, but still you shouldn't have to isolate yourself from the world just to keep rare items rare.

[rekonstruct]

Well like most of you, I think they are both bad. But If I were to have to make a choice as to which one I would rather be effected by it would be duping. I would rather come away from a trade with a duped item, than be a victim of a thief.

Still, I wouldn't want trade with a duper, and be aware of it. Simply for the fact that its really an uneven trade, and that my item that the duper probably needs would be cloned and spread around, therefore unearned.

As to your assertion that stealing is worse than duping.... I can see your point. As I said, I would rather be duped than stolen from, because at least I come out with something. Dont get me wrong though, duping does harm the game as well as my enjoyment of it. I just think of the times I join games with my lv100 (with standard rare items), and everyone at half my level has spreadneedles and stag cutlerys, I do feel somewhat effected by that... think of it in terms of this analogy: You work somewhere for 20 years to earn your gold watch, then in the following year, the company issues gold watches to everyone. Maybe its not the best analogy, but you get the idea. I mean you can still enjoy the fact the you earned your watch, but knowing that everyone has the same watch that they didnt work 20 years for has got to make you just a tad bitter.

Everytime I see one of those trade lists with some crazy stuff (ie. super rare stuff) I pretty much brand them dupers, for 2 reasons.

1) I cant really see any 1 person finding that many rare items alone.. ever. (what with the section ID thing)

2) If they did earn them (ie Find them), I dont think they would be that eager to trade them off. Its unlikely that they have found duplicates too. C'mon, which legitimate person do you know with 2 Holy Rays, or 2 Chaos Bringers? Heck, I havent even run across 1 mag cell, much less 2. And I'll bet its the same for many of the legitimate gamers as well.

A note about #1: If they did find some of the rares (likely) and they are willing to trade them for more rares, they are obviously trading a duped item. How else do you build up a collection? If you trade the only Stag you have for an Agito, you wouldnt have the Stag anymore. So you keep your collection by trading dupes. Thats how they build up these ultra trade lists. I dont like the idea of trading away something I worked for and was fortunate enough to find, to someone who wont really be giving anything in return (ex: the duper still keeps his Stag, while I lose an Agito).

Thats pretty much how I feel on the whole thing. I hope this reflects at least some of your views on this whole thing. Or am I in the minority?

[Ratsmack]

Duping...WORSE than cheating? Wow. That's...wrong in so many ways. Mun-kee, I agree with everything you've said so far. Now, duping may in some small, small, SMALL way decrease the value of an item, but you'd have to have many, many copies of that item on one person. Making one copy doesn't decrease the economy by a cent. And, hell, if they want to make Meseta worth crap, I'd rather have the weapon's value decreased than have it gone. Just because a weapon is worth much less than before doesn't mean its damage is any less, it doesn't mean the Boomas look at how expensive your weapon is and adjust their stats accordingly. I've been using every grinder I can find on my rare machine gun, costing me both money and time to boost it up. Someone steals it...whoop, all that work for nothing. Someone makes it worth less...oh, dear god no! That means I won't be able to sell or trade the weapon I have every intention of using! Plus, you're forgetting something. If the value of, say, a Soul Eater decreases because some dimwit decides "Oooh, fun, many copies" then there's going to be a bunch of other dimwits who say "Oooh, fun, many copies" to other items. Hence, EVERYTHING the damned dupers can get their hands on decreases in value. As for stealing, as Mun-kee said, the item you worked so hard on and the apple of your eye is *poof* gone. Dupers may decrease the value, but they don't take a weapon away or decrease its stats. And Scarab? I ask you, what were you smoking when you wrote that reply? "Stealing makes the game more interesting"!?!? What!? Oh, yes, it's SOOO much fun to keep your best weapon fearfully tucked away while you go out with a weapon you can afford to lose. Oh, yes, it's SOOO much fun to see the weapon you got used to and grinded up just whisked away. Seriously, Scarab, lay off the drugs.

[Manifest]

wow scarab. you just totally changed my opinion, a feat that is not simple to accomplish. I totally had the idea that duping was cool (I dont do it, but who cares if others do right?) but you have a good point about rarity and actually feeling like your items have real value. cool.

[segagameplay]

let me say to the previous opinin i stand and aplaud you! I couldnt agree more. I find dupping worse as in fact stealing is in fact a vital part of the game. It was intended for people to be able to steal. It was not intended to dup.