Please unsticky "Debunking the false claims of Set In Order."

[Zoamel_Gustav]

I would like to ask for the thread "Debunking the false claims of Set In Order" to be unstickied and removed from the list of "Helpful PSU Guides". The first post of the thread contains misinformation.

The first post of the thread contains the following quote:

When a rare is dropped, it is automatically assigned to the person who is next in order REGARDLESS if you or a party member picked it up or not, that rare is DESTINED TO BE YOURS FOREVER.
...
Rares when dropped, are automatically DESTINED for someone in the party who hasn't received a rare yet in the current set in order round.
...
So when someone says not to pick up crappy rares in a party, he/she obviously don't understand how set in order works. And when next time someone starts making bs about set in order being broken, direct him/her to this post and tell them to stfu.

Below is recorded proof that items are distributed upon picking up, not dropping. The test is easily repeatable. The following quote is from the thread "PSU: Recorded Test of Set in Order."

Item Distribution Test :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlPZgmt_WY

Siertes and I were in a 2 person locked group. Unsafe Passage C with rares were set to finder and normal items were set in order.

First item dropped was a dimate. Second item dropped was an acenaline. Third item dropped was wenceline.

I picked up the acenaline, which went to me. If drops were already predetermined, then by process of elimination, the dimate can never go to me and must go to Siertes.

Next I picked up the wenceline, which went to Siertes.

Finally I picked up the dimate, which went to me. It did not already belong to Siertes. The dimate and the acenaline were the first and second items dropped and they both went to me.

This proves that the owner of an item is not determined the moment it drops. This test shows that an item's ownership is determined the moment that item is picked up.

Please note that there are times when one person can get 3 or more items in a row. This can be caused by players being in different areas and was most noticeable in the two-area missions (like SEED Express), MAG and Egg Thieves. These mission are split into smaller areas and players left alone in one area will always get all the items they pick up in that area.

[biggabertha]

Not meaning to pick a bone but...

What if the drops of items are already determined when the area loads up..? For example, in PSO, as soon as you arrive on the map, the enemy that spawns already has an item assigned to it, for example, it is GOING to drop a monomate while it's buddy next to it is going to drop a Lavis Cannon.

Unfortunately, if you kill the first enemy (gurr Purplenum Tollaws, gurr gurr) then get killed by it's buddy and return to Pioneer 2, you will reset the drops. This means that when you go back down, your Tollaw will no longer drop your Lavis Cannon. (This is true for offline - online, the drops are all "locked in" when you first enter the map.)


What I'm trying to get at is how it's very possible that all of the items when you warp into a map on PSU are already assigned when you warp in - not on the order that they are picked up.

Have you tried picking up items A, B and C in different orders? Because it's quite possible that instead of picking up A, B and C that you are actually picking up B, C, D. Item A could be off a box or another enemy or something.

Sometimes, in Roar of Flames, I've picked up [B]Kaza-kikami, A-Photon Reactor and Svaltus Edge and all of them have gone to me in a three person party. All three of us were there, we skipped out on picking up all of Kerselines, Vestalines and Vulcalines that dropped aplenty but neither of my friends got them. We were all on the same block, we picked them up one at a time, as they were dropped to us.

I can't say for certain but the drop was something like Vestaline, Vulcaline, Svaltus Sword board, Kaza kikami board, vestaline, Junaline, dimate, monomate, meseta, Svaltus Edge etc. etc.


I'm not trying to disprove you but it is a little contradicting with what I seem to get with my friends.

[Dhylec]

Zoa, while I do not dispute your claim with what you have experimented, I don't think that the Debunker thread is wrong either. Your experiment was with 2 people, not much variation can be created from that - it's either you or him. In party of 3 or more, with many drops all over, the distribution will definitely vary more, specially with blocks counted in.

I find truth in both cases, so I can't say you're right & he's wrong. It's a small sample of what order & randomness are, so it can't be absolute.

[Zoamel_Gustav]

What I'm trying to get at is how it's very possible that all of the items when you warp into a map on PSU are already assigned when you warp in - not on the order that they are picked up.

Have you tried picking up items A, B and C in different orders? Because it's quite possible that instead of picking up A, B and C that you are actually picking up B, C, D. Item A could be off a box or another enemy or something.

The game does not know ahead of time which enemies/boxes will drop items. GBRs prove that drops rates can be changed any time players join or leave.

The game's skip system also contradicts that. The skip system proves the order adjusts when a player is skipped. When someone can't accept an item due to inventory or being in another zone, they get skipped. When someone is skipped by the order, their spot in the order is still lost and the order shifts.

For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhb0ekLnpng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqlMb79CEI

At 0:05, you can see rares are set in order. Rouku gets a junaline at 3:07 then a vulcaline at 4:20. Rouku gets two items in a row. During the second part, Zero Beat gets a vestaline at 5:17 then a chicotite at 5:35. Zero Beat gets two items in a row.

First set was: DEATH 0:41, polartwo 0:49, Zero Beat 1:34, (Ghost was before 1:43), Tripping Contract V2 2:09, Rouku 3:07,

Second set was: Rouku 4:20, DEATH 4:44, Tripping Contract V2 7:33, Ghost 8:33, polartwo 0:12, Zero Beat 5:17,

Third set was: Zero Beat 5:35,

Ghost was in party but enters after 1:43. Ghost was skipped because his place in the first set was before 1:43. Rouku leaves at 6:10, yet this does not disturb the sets. The players who got two items in a row both did so at exacty where each set finished and reset.

Here we see exactly where the sets each end and reset because players happened to get two items in a row at those points. The first set clearly ends after only 5 items because Ghost's spot was skipped because Ghost entered the mission late at 1:43. Ghost's item was given to either DEATH, polartwo, or Zero Beat. Ghost and either DEATH, polartwo, or Zero Beat used up both their spots in the first order. The first set still ended after six spots exactly.

Rouku leaving has no effect because Rouku left after his spot had been used. The second set still ended after six spots exactly.

Zoa, while I do not dispute your claim with what you have experimented, I don't think that the Debunker thread is wrong either. Your experiment was with 2 people, not much variation can be created from that - it's either you or him. In party of 3 or more, with many drops all over, the distribution will definitely vary more, specially with blocks counted in.

I find truth in both cases, so I can't say you're right & he's wrong. It's a small sample of what order & randomness are, so it can't be absolute.

The experiment did not need over two people or more variation. I'm not showing variations because it is not a sample. I'm showing impossibilities which are absolute. If someone claims something which requires event X to be impossible and I prove event X is possible, then the claim is wrong.

The claim is that the skipped dimate was "DESTINED FOREVER" to go to Siertes. I proved it did not go to Siertes. If drops are "DESTINED FOREVER" then the results shown are impossible regardless of how many people are in the party.

The important point is that items are not "DESTINED FOREVER", so I ask what proof would I need to provide for the thread "Debunking the false claims of Set In Order" to be unstickied?

[Hrith]

Zoa's right on this one, it's a fact. It was proven ages ago, too.

We need more people like Zoamel >_>

[SStrikerR]

But really...does it matter?
I mean seriously, set in order had always sucked, and will continue to be that way.
Do people even use it?

[Chuck_Norris]

But really...does it matter?
I mean seriously, set in order had always sucked, and will continue to be that way.
Do people even use it?

Even better point: How many people even read that sticky thread?

On topic though, I do agree with him. Rather silly to say that it's "destined forever".

[Ryna]

The thread has been removed from the floating sticky list since the guide's claims have been proven wrong.