Bull Shxt: Not Quite a Thread/ More Like a Post.

[Outrider]

Of course individuals who happen to be white males can be oppressed. It's just that they aren't oppressed on the basis of being white males. The demographic "White males" does not suffer any systemic oppression, while other demographics certainly do. Some of those definitely do include some white males (poor people, mentally disabled people, etc). That doesn't invalidate claims about oppression on the basis of being a woman or non-white though.

The people who 'attack' others for being white males are missing the point and don't understand where to direct their anger, but you're not being oppressed.

Pretty much.

any kind of disadvantage you might face in life doesn't matter if you're white because it's not ~the system~ doing it to you, and you see you're white so you don't know what it's like to be ridiculed for being a certain race or gender you dumb white male

ableism, ageism, so on and so forth don't count because we're only talking about skin color and penises atm

If a person is going to enter conversations of systemic oppression against minority groups and try to bring up their specific oppression despite being part of a privileged group, then yeah, you're going to be ridiculed.

For an oversimplified metaphor: It sucks that I broke my leg, but I probably don't need to bring it up when people are talking about how they all have terminal cancer.

The idea that discussions of feminism or racial equality are somehow eliminating the ability for people to discuss ableism or ageism is a flawed premise. If anything, one could argue that proponents of one cause should back up others when they are trying to speak instead of trying to derail the conversation in favor of their own cause.

also we don't talk about that time the irish were treated like shit

Sure we do, but the idea that anybody would expect to hear as many people talking about it in 2014 versus other systemic oppression that's still relevant today is a bit silly. It's not really an apples to apples thing.

The fact that I'm Irish and living in America in 2014 has far fewer potential negative consequences for me than if I were born a woman or a racial minority.

[gigawuts]

Pretty much.





If a person is going to enter conversations of systemic oppression against minority groups and try to bring up their specific oppression despite being part of a privileged group, then yeah, you're going to be ridiculed.

For an oversimplified metaphor: It sucks that I broke my leg, but I probably don't need to bring it up when people are talking about how they all have terminal cancer.

The idea that discussions of feminism or racial equality are somehow eliminating the ability for people to discuss ableism or ageism is a flawed premise. If anything, one could argue that proponents of one cause should back up others when they are trying to speak instead of trying to derail the conversation in favor of their own cause.




Sure we do, but the idea that anybody would expect to hear as many people talking about it in 2014 versus other systemic oppression that's still relevant today is a bit silly. It's not really an apples to apples thing.

The fact that I'm Irish and living in America in 2014 has far fewer potential negative consequences for me than if I were born a woman or a racial minority.

I'm trying to figure out how to tackle this without getting involved in yet another ridiculous PSOW/tumblr "debate," but I'm coming up mostly empty.

I just can't see how you guys can repeatedly and continuously focus so steadily on just those two things when talking about peoples' entire lives, and then when it comes to any other oppression a person might face just bat it away like it's a fly. You give it a super brief blurb and then act like it was never even brought up.

Really. I just can't fathom that. I can't think that way. People are much, much more than their skin tone and gender. Fixating on those two things, then ignoring other topics until someone else brings them up, is just the dumbest thing.

To boil down a person to their skin color and gender, without acknowledging any other topics until they bring them up, is pretty poor form. It's even poorer form that the default position always seems to be that the white male has no other oppression they face until they bring them up, and then it's just a quick blurb and then back to "But you're not oppressed because you're white."

Really, I can't imagine how you guys think that's at all proactive to your cause. You have to be able to see how that turns people off to anything you have to say. Surely you're not that out of touch.

Even when people say they understand that people may not be oppressed because they're white or male, but they have other reasons they are, it's still met with the same shit. Like right there, look how quickly you went and basically accused me of trying to change the topic when I should be trying to back you up. Where did I try to change the topic? I was adding onto it. You can discuss two things, but not three, four, or five things? Are you really so buried into just these two topics that nothing else exists for you? Why does gender not have to back up race? Why does race not have to back up gender? Why can it be race & gender being discussed, but not race, gender, & age? Why not race & age, and telling gender it needs to back them up? How did it not enter your mind, or at least your post, at all that I wasn't trying to change the topic but instead expand it?

Why is it only "white males" that you describe as not being systematically oppressed, but not "healthy, financially stable, middle-aged, white males" that you go on about not facing systematic oppression? Why stop at two descriptors and leave the rest off?

You guys are basically the Jehovah's Witnesses of human equality, you push your shit until a door gets slammed in your face.

[Sp-24]

People deleting posts or locking topics after they enter a discussion they don't like and don't come out as a clear winner. Especially if the reason is "derailing" or "off-topic posting", when all posts, including those made by the person in question, follow the exact same topic. Even more so if they end it with an obligatory last word post-lock. Ugh.

[16085k]

Why is it only "white males" that you describe as not being systematically oppressed, but not "healthy, financially stable, middle-aged, white males" that you go on about not facing systematic oppression? Why stop at two descriptors and leave the rest off?

Well this discussion started off with the claim that "Anti-repression mechanisms" repress straight, white males. I would argue that most movements against oppression don't really repress them at all. For example, how does a group of woman protesting in defense of their reproductive rights repress men? Or how can protests against the stop and search laws in New York be seen as an attack on white people?

[gigawuts]

Well this discussion started off with the claim that "Anti-repression mechanisms" repress straight, white males. I would argue that most movements against oppression don't really repress them at all. For example, how does a group of woman protesting in defense of their reproductive rights repress men? Or how can protests against the stop and search laws in New York be seen as an attack on white people?

Nobody said that was the case. Rallying for your own rights isn't the same as berating someone and saying they should feel guilty that they don't have a harder life. Especially not when you...have no idea how hard their life is.

Honestly, I think 90% of the modern "anti"-feminism stuff (meaning disliking feminism movement, not actually disliking women's rights) is in direct response to the overly preachy and constantly in your face tumblr-style "feminists," who unfortunately are becoming an unfortunately louder and louder minority (for all I know they're becoming a majority).

People don't like to be told they have an easy life - especially if they actually don't. You already replied on this, but this is the real point of contention. Yes, I know you're saying that they're not systematically oppressed specifically because of their skin color, but if you don't acknowledge other kinds they might be facing up front you will put people on the defensive. You'd probably also see better results if you were a bit more specific on that point, a few of the times you said it were vague and open to interpretation. (And, really, just saying it once is enough - most people do not want to be told something like that repeatedly, and it will shut them down from the discussion).

My position isn't one of a particular gender, race, or any demographic at all - I'm very frankly in favor of complete human equality within physical reason. I think that's pretty reasonable. I can't think of any real reasons to stigmatize or ostracize anyone for their gender, skin color, preferences, or anything that doesn't harm anyone else. There are some obvious exceptions though - men are statistically going to be stronger than women, and women can have babies while men can't. There's obviously never going to be perfect equality in every way. There are physical limitations preventing it. But what about the things we can equalize? We should.

And honestly, that opinion isn't at all uncommon. Virtually everyone I run into and talk about this with feel the same way. We all know how it feels to be put down for something we can't change by somebody, and many of us don't want anyone to live their life feeling that.

But don't be surprised when people get aggravated after being told for the umpteenth time that they have an amazing life because they're white, with some fine print beneath it that says "but you might still have problems."

If you want people to take you seriously then you need to take them seriously. You can't pigeonhole people into a single demographic and attack the issue that way. This is an issue of individuals as well as an issue of demographics. If you want people to see your perspective, then see theirs.

That's my gripe with this topic - not necessarily what is said, but how it's said.

[Enforcer MKV]

......Gosh, didn't think it'd spur something like this.

*ahem* Aaaaaaaaanyway.

Your manager has a point there, as I'm pretty sure it has something to do with health and safety regulations. Don't quote me on it, though, I don't know for sure.

As for the latter, did it happen online? On dumblr, maybe? Because, while online bickering is always hilarious, I'd say it's not worth getting frustrated over, and better to stay above such things, like an oppressive patriarch that you are. Do save screenshots, though.

Eh, it's a strip that's designed to blow air out under it onto people coming in through the entrance, and it's a wide enough entrance that I was off to one end and wasn't in the way. I...honestly don't think the manager was right to complain at me for taking a short rest considering how warm it was, not to mention the fact that I'd been pushing carts for several hours by hand without a break.

And it was a girl I've actually known since Elementary school. Well, thought I knew. Was honestly quite hurt when she started talking about the article and said all men were guilty of it....Boggles my mind sometimes...

Drink water. Gash dang.

Water bottle was empty and manager complained that I wasn't on the lot when I went to get a drink from the fountain. Despite there being two other people on the lot. Figured I'd try something different. Eh, I'm moving to hardline [stocking, basically, a lot of spotting a forklift], and more importantly, inside, in three weeks so I won't have to worry about the elements.

_________________________

Oh, right, I'm supposed to complain about stuff here.....

Stupid insomnia, stupid becoming unstable when I can't sleep.

Rawr, and stuff....*cough*

[Cyron Tanryoku]

i hate video games

grr

[Outrider]

Nobody said that was the case. Rallying for your own rights isn't the same as berating someone and saying they should feel guilty that they don't have a harder life. Especially not when you...have no idea how hard their life is.

There are people who might tell you to feel guilty about your privileges. They are wrong. Being self-aware of privileges doesn't mean feeling guilty about it.

Those people also aren't the people in this thread, so.

If you want people to take you seriously then you need to take them seriously. You can't pigeonhole people into a single demographic and attack the issue that way. This is an issue of individuals as well as an issue of demographics. If you want people to see your perspective, then see theirs.

Rallying for a cause allows for a group of people to tackle major issues that are affecting many people instead of fragmenting that group down into smaller groups that are unable to get momentum.

Again: the implication that people campaigning against sexism and racism is somehow denying the ability to discuss other issues of oppression is a blatant mischaracterization of those campaigns.

All that serves to do is derail the argument and cut that momentum.

So you're either intentionally derailing any discussion designed to educate and fight against certain types of oppression, or you're doing it unintentionally because you think other topics are being ignored.

I'll once again direct you to point that you have a platform right here to discuss the issues that concern you. If you'd like to discuss ableism or ageism or any other sort of systematic oppression, then do so. If you or somebody you know is suffering some sort of oppression or mistreatment, then please feel free to share.

However, that doesn't mean that when others are discussing or complaining about legitimate systematic oppression of different groups of people, that you can demand the stop what they're doing to discuss other forms of oppression.

That helps nobody and is an obviously absurd request.

That's my gripe with this topic - not necessarily what is said, but how it's said.

Then you need to figure out what is more important to you: the fact that people actually discuss a topic or that they discuss it the way you want them to.

[gigawuts]

By this point this is very off-topic (although it matches the thread title - bullshxt), so I'm pushing my reply to a PM.

[BIG OLAF]

Happy Fathers Day.