Bull Shxt: Not Quite a Thread/ More Like a Post.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

From my experience with a few artist, they don't blow off criticism, treat people like trash, etc. They just..don't respond to everyone and everything which is to be expected. I'm obviously not the only person sending them messages so I'm not going to complain if what I said doesn't get responded to.


I mean, I know there are dicks out there, but I'm willing to be Olaf probably is blowing it out of proportion. It's not a shot at Olaf, but in general a lot of people like to play victim.

[gigawuts]

Well I wouldn't say it's the majority; it's just your standard vocal minority; but since they gather people up, the group they assemble winds up being farther reaching than if they alone had a snooty attitude.

I had a friend many years ago who was developing his art skills from basically scratch, and he was getting pretty goddamn great. He went from sketches he only showed to a couple of us on occasion to learning how to color things pretty damn well in photoshop and posting them to deviant art in about a year. He gained the attention of the "in" crew on deviant art in the process. These were that kind of group Olaf was describing - full of themselves, dismissive of anyone who can't create art on or above their level, etc. They were, obviously, sonic fan artists.

He was brought into the fold when he started posting high quality stuff and didn't notice it at first, but began to when he realized almost none of them treated any of the commenters on their work with the slightest bit of decency beyond the standard superficial "Thanks! I'm glad you like it!" He was actually taking note of what people were saying, and it's how he got so good so fast.

It became obvious to him when he realized they only began to acknowledge him after he started posting his work. Before then they refused to acknowledge anything he said if it wasn't pure praise, since he was just another art-less member of the crowd. They would joke around in their artist-exclusive chatrooms (which they openly admitted were only for "good artists") about all of the morons commenting on their work who couldn't draw shit, etc. It was a giant back-patting circlejerk.

He wound up getting so increasingly disgusted with their attitudes and all of the drama that he just dropped off the net entirely and removed all of his submissions.

It's just dicks being dicks, and using art as an excuse to feel better than other people. Dicks that can't do art find some other excuse, but in this instance yes people like that do exist.

edit: Ah, I forgot to mention one of the key factors in that story. One of the things he became most disgusted with was when he tried to involve his other friends, including me a couple times, in nothing specific. Anyone who wasn't doing art was automatically excluded. They wouldn't play games with other people, they wouldn't involve them in chatrooms, nada. If you weren't contributing art on their level you were just some peasant. That's ultimately why he just said fuck it, I think. I never did find out for sure. A couple of his real life friends were in our online group, and they said he pretty much dropped everything involved - no more art, no more internet, nothing. He just got heavily into his schoolwork. He'd shown some signs of depression, so that probably played a factor.

[CelestialBlade]

It's starting to sound like a lot of the confusion is from "all artists" versus "vocal minority". I have no doubt that there's a vocal minority who act like that, every community gets those, but I think it's a bit unfair to say all artists are doomed to act that way or that it's somehow exclusive to artists. I know I'm arguing semantics here, but I think that caused some confusion.

[Outrider]

You fail to distinguish between artists and non-artists however, which is exactly what the artists in question were doing (and then refusing to acknowledge non-artists as anything besides a potential cash flow, viewing them all as moochers without getting to know them, similar things).

What you're talking about isn't what was being discussed.

Yeah, that was a weird edit on my part before I posted. I originally was just referring to going to conventions in general but then added in the bit about going there as an artist without updating the rest of the post. What I should've said was that I've been in both positions: both as a fan and as a fellow artist. My point still stands, though: creators shouldn't be dicks to fans but fans shouldn't expect they deserve anything except for the creator to not be a dick.

But anyway, I think ultimately we're really talking about how exclusive cliques are annoying and obnoxious and I think that's something with which everybody would agree. I just don't like conflating "elitist clique" with "group of friends that doesn't include you." For most people they aren't the same thing. (Most, of course.)

[gigawuts]

Which is a good distinction to make, but being on the receiving end of those two situations can feel starkly different. It's one thing to occasionally chat with someone and then just not really have anything come of it - you're just not really similar enough to catch on as friends, and artists who make themselves visible to a lot of people have a lot of people looking for conversations (there ARE people who seek free art in exactly this way, no doubts there).

But when they don't even respond at all because you're not "on their level," while at the same time conversing with people who are, then yes they're stinkline twats.

[NoiseHERO]

Nah secret is, like Giga mostly covered, artists are people like everyone else. Which is why most of em are pretty terrible. The just use their art to feel special instead of something else. (like how I first compared them to tumblr.) :/

Oh and artists need attention @_@ good artist/person or bad... outside of hobbyist zone it's bread in butter, inside hobbyist zone it's drama hell. Many Nepotism wars, Original characters and Circle Jerking wars await.

[BIG OLAF]

I think the issue Olaf is trying to bring it up is like...

Um
Lets say you me and Rock are all artists (wait we are) and all 3 of us are really close and do things withourselves exclusively without bringing in any one else's opinions or suggestions. Like the 3 of us are a giant wall that nobody can enter or even be acknowledged.

Yes, more or less. It's just irritating that some artists that I see, especially on Tumblr, just outright do not take the opinions nor suggestions of non-artists and/or "fans" seriously, like they are of no consequence. Like, if you aren't of a certain caliber of artistic skill (and especially if you have no artistic skill), then you don't deserve their attention.

Also, like Rock just sort of pointed out, the amount of circlejerking echochambers of "OC Gift Art" is just insane, almost enough to make you sick.

[DreXxiN]

A writer of mine decided it'd be a good idea to publish without my permission on a sensitive topic...hours of PR work later everything's all settled, but not a fun thing to deal with in my first month on the new job.

[Nitro Vordex]

Yes, more or less. It's just irritating that some artists that I see, especially on Tumblr, just outright do not take the opinions nor suggestions of non-artists and/or "fans" seriously, like they are of no consequence. Like, if you aren't of a certain caliber of artistic skill (and especially if you have no artistic skill), then you don't deserve their attention.

It's funny because on dumblr you could remove artist and place any profession/belief in your statement and be correct.

What I'm saying is I hate tumblr, to an extent. But we won't get into that, no shaming of other sites and what not.

Oh right complaining thread. Um. I make shit for money at my job. I need to pay for school and get a car. Need a new job. etc.

[redroses]

While I can understand that it is frustrating to feel left out, but being an artist myself, I can somewhat relate better to the artists side in this situation, especially if you are a popular artist.

You have to understand that some of these artist get hundreds of comments, notes and e-mails daily and they are only one person. I already get overwhelmed when I get 5 notes from random people, which also has to do with me being very introverted and being stressed out with unknown social contact.
Anyway, after you get 50 notes a day, from people wanting to be your friend and right away asking if you could draw them something, or asking if only friends get free art and if so, how they can become a friend of the artist is just very frustrating. And the latter actually happens a lot. So of course you start to get selective, and you will trust other artist with better or equal art skills to yourself more as it doesn't feel like all they want is free art.

Of course it isn't nice or right, if they exclude you, and there are some that are totally stuck up and are asses about being artist, just like in every other group. Tumblr is probably, like often, a breeding ground for the artist assholes tho, so you probably shouldn't base your opinion alone on tumblr.

Most of the artist friendships I made just happened, because we both liked and drew similar things, so of course we started talking and stuff.
It's just like if you would go on a forum and somebody talks about stuff that interest him and you think 'Oh hey, those are the things I like as well, maybe that guy is cool, I should try talking to him'.

Anyway, that is just my opinion on this whole subject.