Casual use of Over End is bad...

[Kirukia]

It did 0 damage, I didn't even count the possible flinch. And no I was in a restricted area. If you run then you still have to take the time to turn around and line it up.
PA Compress is a special instance and doesn't count, as does attacking over a wall. Since one small enemy doesn't spawn on the other side of the room, that would involve running around the obstacle to get it stuck. That's you making up an incident that wouldn't happen realistically. Which is ironic because you were bashing the OP for doing that hmm?

[RRyuugu]

Line it up? That's the L button is for. Seeing as it's the only enemy in the stage I don't see how the L button will fail in this regard.

It's directly behind the player. Over End can also auto aim while the sword is being extended.

PA Compress exists in the game. How is that not supposed to be a factor? It can be aquired by anyone. And it was even factored in the original formula. The PA Compress isn't even a random item.

[Kirukia]

That's like saying, "This only works if you have a celeb 3 ainsraiffe with 41% native."
It's a variable that you're ignoring because you think it will support your argument.
Since you seem to like the original post so much....
"The guide doesn't take into account elements, resistances, percents, ATP, ATA or EVP, however I think this is moot."
If we're including items, then the whole thing changes.
But anyway, you even replicated some of the results yourself, so I'm going to bed. Its 1:30am and I have a lab at 9. Good night.

[RRyuugu]

Oh, so exactly what Sword should be used? The stronger the Sword the faster the results of Normal Attack. You seem to have missed the point raised in one of those posts by the "many people" you told me to read. Normal Attack depends heavily on the strength of the Sword.

If we're not going to consider Compress PA then we'd better have a Sword that everyone in Super Hard would have access to now would we? And I believe that's the Askalon seeing as it's buyable in the shop? Or maybe even the Hocho as it's a Photon Drop Shop item.

Maybe you should redo a test eh? Unless you weren't using an "instance" Sword?

In fact because you're so adamant against "instance" items that would mean ATA would now be a real issue as a Sword that people are sure to have in Super Hard wouldn't exactly have high ATA now would it? Hmmm?

How much ATA does the Askalon have 164? My, my that's pretty low the Hocho only has 192, that's pretty low as well. Thanks for revealing yet another flaw in the formula. Normal Attack spam will suffer from ATA while Over End Spam does not. Congratulations for helping me prove the OP wrong. I mean if Compress PA can't be factored in then a Star 7 Sword with 50 ATA Adj shouldn't be factored in as well hmmm?

[Kirukia]

She didn't calculate atp etc into the equation in the first place.
So no.
Nice try though.
Why are you still here?
You've started an argument with anybody whose disagreed with you. Grow up.

[RRyuugu]

Which is why the formula is flawed. By your own admission "instance" items should not be considered. PA Compress is an instance item so it should be considered. However the same applies to any 6 Star Sword above with good ATA Adj, as those are "instance" items.

Without 6 Star and 7 Star Swords and high ATA Adj a Hunter will miss constantly with Normal Attack without an ATA MAG. However a Hunter using Over End will not miss constantly. Remember the condition? Normal Attack must be spammed always, a requirement for spamming is for Normal Attack to actually hit, which it will not because 5 Star Swords with 0 Acc Adj + Hunter ATA do not even break 500 ATA.

The conclusion that Casual use of Over End is bad is derived from the formula that requires Normal Attack to be spammed. The formula is invalid, the Over End spammer is allowed to have more ATP from MAGs because he doesn't need ATA to hit reliably in Super Hard. If the formula is invalid then the conclusion is flawed.

Simple logic.

So again thanks for showing another flaw in the formula. Do go ahead and discover more mistakes.

[Kirukia]

You really do fail as a troll.
Sword and mag ATP weren't even calculated in. You're assuming we are on Super Hard, which was never said.
This whole formula is relative. You're basically assuming the whole scenario is taking place on super hard with certain equips and a Compress PA. You've probably also made the assumption that the player is a generally low level for the difficulty. You accuse other people of coming up with odd scenarios, but I have to admit, yours takes the cake. You've made assumptions about the scenario without even knowing what you're saying. You obviously can't use over end without a sword, so obviously the person will have a sword. The sword statistics wasn't calculated in because that was up to the player to fill in, not the OP. At any rate, even with average swords for the area, most people can hit just fine for their modes. Your scenario of ATA shortage is probably derived from an assumption of a person who just got to super hard, has an ata shortage for the mode because of their level, and who can really only hit effectively with the PA because of the ata boost. And conveniently for them, they managed to get a PA compress right as they reached super hard difficulty!

[RRyuugu]

You're actually saying that the game actually matters so much before Super Hard that people need to analyze DPS prior to that?

What nonsense. In any Action RPG with multiple difficulties, PSO to begin with, build considerations, strategies that go this deep, the only difficulty that matters is the hardest one. Honestly do people actually make builds and strategies/analysis for those builds outside of Ultimate Mode? Honestly I've yet to even see any kind of build or strategy for a build that doesn't revolve around Ultimate Mode. Normal/Hard, Normal/Nightmare are simply stop overs to Very Hard, Super Hard, Ultimate, Hell or whatever the game calls the final difficulty.

If you're trying to weasel your way out by saying "this formula applies to Normal and Hard Mode" then you're getting desperate.

Have you reached Super Hard? Have you actually tried hitting things there with less than 500 ATA? Less than 550 ATA? Hunters do not have Zalure, they cannot lower the ATA requirements like Rangers and Forces. You've said it yourself, let's only consider Hunters.

Sword statistics are important, Hunters need to balance ATP and ATA if they only rely on Normal Attack (or PA's without a huge jump in ATA) Over End requires less ATA, so ATP can be increased if Over End is spammed meaning the 750% damage of Over End is not equal to the damage of 7.5 Normal Swings but more than that. The formula assumes that Over End will deal 7.5x the damage of a Normal Swing. This only holds true if the ATP values are equal. Which, if the Over End build is optimized will not hold true.

[Kirukia]

ITT: You start to question value of information because it doesn't agree with your exact scenarios and/or opinion.

In a normal scenario, ata is only problematic in the starting level of super hard, before you actually level up and gain decent equips. IF WE WERE TO ADD IN EQUIPS, most people would reach that. Not everyone has found the cake shop, even with a level 100, so a compress PA is hardly a common equip. By super hard most people will have a level 100 mag, including hit (depending on class). Before you say "blah blah you said we weren't talking about equips!" Yes I know what I said you don't need to repeat it. You seemed so bent on real in-game scenarios, so I will explain it for you, since I'm such a nice person. Realistically, most people won't have a compress PA, but most people will have the items required to have enough ata, excluding people just entering SH, which is a minority.
Sword statistics are important, and ata is important, but most hunters in super hard will be able to hit the ata they need even without OE. You're under the assumption that most hunters in SH don't have the required ata to do normal attacks. For normal attacks to hit most of the time, you only need around 450 ata.
You can't just assume everyone is going to be unprepared and not have enough ata. Realistically nobody is going to go to super hard with a newbie sword and no equips, the formula is supposed to be a base to build on based on your equips, not an exact replica of the damage you do.

PS: Do you like stalk this thread? You reply right after me almost every time. It's like you're just waiting for someone to reply so you can argue with them. I'd also like to point out, you've pretty much been on your own through-out this whole thread. If that doesn't represent in-game scenarios, I don't know what does.

[RRyuugu]

Really? That's just false. Which is surprising as this forum is attached to the site with all the charts and tables needed to gather this kind of data.

Swords have low ATA. The best combination of pure ATP and ATA on a Hunter is with a Level 100 HUcaseal with the Millias Breaker. Result? 546 ATA. The Millias Breaker cannot have Celeb the same way as regular weapons can. Celeb can only be spawned not synthesized. So which means if we go by damage the Millias Breaker might not even be the best way to go.

The best Synthesizable Celeb Sword is the Ainsraiffe, and a Level 100 HUcaseal will have 502 ATA, barely breaking 500 ATA but it's still not good enough for Normal Attack Spam. Over End on the other hand can hit things regularly with just 450 ATA (with an Ainsraiffe with no ATA Adj)

And this is with a Level 100 HUcaseal which has 294 base ATA by the way. A Level 60 HUcaseal only has 260 ATA, 70 269, 80 277, 92 (or the half way point) 287. Feel free to pick any value.

The HUmar has even less ATA. 243 at Level 100, meaning with a Millias Breaker, again no ATA Adj, that doesn't even break 500.

But hey let's use your HUnewm as an example. A level 65 HUnewm will have 221 Base ATA. Even a Millias Breaker will not give enough ATA.

Your HUnewm using a Ainsraiffe will only have 429 ATA. Where are you going to get the 71 ATA needed to break 500? 550?

MAGs? But every point of ATA in a MAG is 1 lost ATP.

And seriously who the hell makes analysis in an action RPG that doesn't involve the hardest difficulty. Seriously. Go to almost any Action RPG board especially those with multiplayer, post a build/strategy without indicating the difficulty, and I'm pretty sure that every person who will look at your build/strategy will automatically assume it's for the highest difficulty. It's a time saver, because no one wants to waste their time analyzing a build or strategy that'll only be viable for only a few hours.

Oh and I am seriously doubting this test of yours, let me guess conducted in Hard Mode? Laughable, make a real test in Super Hard. See if the data still matches up. Remember you can only put as much as 450 ATA on your character if you haven't already passed it as that's the ATA needed by the Over End spammer to hit things in Super Hard. If your MAG/Units/Materials is the reason why you have more than 450 ATA then be sure to reset/remove them before conducting the test.