I want PSO2 to be like Spelunky

[Eidolus_Dyne]

I'm dreamin' large! These are entirely just my most idealized wishes.

I love the new direction Phantasy Star is taking. I've always thought that PSO walked a line between Action and RPG with the worst of both worlds. With PSO2 I feel like its firmly striding toward Action and away from RPG, but I could be happier.

No more level ups, tiered equipment systems, and otherwise cheap game mechanics. These have, for much too long, been described as "RPG" but I don't think that's right. At all. We can all pretend that level ups facilitate role playing, but is this really true? I think that these systems create a "keeping up with the joneses" mentality that is exactly contradictory to having fun. It's described in this video as The Skinner Box, and I think it's a sign of lack luster creativity in design.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...he-Skinner-Box

I think that anyone who wants to think critically about games and their designs should watch this video. And you absolutely MUST if you want to participate in this discussion.

Spelunky. For those of you who are unfamiliar. Spelunky is the game that is most surprising and open to discovery I have ever played. I still go back to it, curious to see what kind of environments, and challenges it will generate for me. It's simple, but creates a whole range of scenarios that are both fresh, and interesting. It's difficult to play the game the way I might have played PSU a few years ago. Eyes half lidded, barely aware... reflexes in total control. In Spelunky, if you rush and don't pay attention. That's it, game over.

But that's Rogue-like game design for you. If you can't have YASD (yet another stupid death) it's no fun. Failure seems to be an under appreciated outcome in games these days. But man, I've had some spectacularly memorable failures in Spelunky. It's a learning experience, it's engaging my interest. It's the antithesis to that... grindy farmy mindless sloggy experience that I had with both PSO and PSU.

So what would PSO2 be like in my idealized star studded fantasy dream?

-Randomized fields would have such a variety of outcomes, that they'd create emergent dangers and challenges that would not only hold my interest, but if I didn't learn and pay attention they could actually beat me.

-No level ups, or incentive to farm. Structure the game like C-mode from PSO, and I'd be super happy. C-mode with randomized fields? Yes yes yes yes. Remember how gear in C-mode was always really good? Give me my rewards like water, and take them away when I fail. Not only does it mean some of us would actually get to SEE some of the cool stuff that most people would take months to farm, we'd see it pretty often. Like the jetpack in Spelunky. Sure it's hard to come by, but it makes things interesting if we can lose it too.

+now let me be clear. Most people would baw over perma death. But think about it, why do we fear it so much? This is a game after all, you can always try again. Essentially it's a world proven to have reincarnation. Death is just a mild set back, try try again. When we have systems that promote farming and hording items and levels, it creates that fear of loss. Sure failure sucks, but it can be an interesting outcome and the game should be designed to facilitate a variety of experiences and make them ALL interesting. The way REAL Role Playing games do, you know, in the meat space. These so-called RPG game mechanics are being used as the anti-thesis to actual role playing. How do they still share the same label?!

-It would give us tools, not weapons. Sure, we could use them as weapons, but they'd have a sense of function. You saw it before in the weapon classes, some weapons were the "right tool for the right job" depending on the circumstances. But make them more than that. Let us use them in more than one context than merely... bashing waves after waves of enemies with uninspiring tactics... yawn. I'm excited to see guns in the PSO2 trailer, because they've given them new use. New control. Akin to the way they gave us new control for melee battle back in PSU. I am excited to see how they give us new control over techniques. Something in the vein of FMA alchemy, where you manipulate your environment or the tide of battle. Beyond... heals and buffs. We have complex computer systems, I think we could find a cleverer way to use techniques beyond +5 armor.


So in case it's not clear, I do actually like this series. I loved PSO's beautiful environments and atmosphere, and its clever enemy tactics. I still have an extreme fondness for certain attacks in PSU, which were so satisfying to land on enemies. Koltova, my tasty little punching bags. And if anything, I hope that PSO2 is the best of both worlds. A variety of environments with interesting structure, enemies with tactics worth fighting, and player controls that really let us get expressive (and cooperative) in gameplay.

Now, go play some Spelunky. Learn to enjoy failing.
http://www.spelunkyworld.com/

[GreenArcher]

I've never played/heard of Spelunky nor have I watched that video, but I completely agree with your thoughts on failure. PSU was so much fun when mission rewards mattered (when money was scarce, and MP was important), and Scape Dolls were out of the question. Demons Above A? Took well over an hour unless you had a great party.

[Nitro Vordex]

So then make PSO2 absolutely nothing like anything in the rest of the series, and turn it into a game where you're pretty much just farmers with your pitchfork in weird places all the time. Sounds kinda bad. Some of the stuff you touched upon is already happening, such as randomized fields. Turning the weapons into tools just sounds stupid. We have the weapons for a reason, we're supposed to be fighting, not waving a stick at them and hoping they leave us alone. Perma death would be ridiculous, as that could probably open up a whole new level of griefing/trolling, not to mention pretty much the entirety of the community afraid of leaving their rooms in fear of losing all the work they put into their character. A penalty for dying, however, I can agree with, but there actually has to be a threat of dying first, since both PSO and PSU had a point where there was nothing to worry about ever.

Now, having the weapons serve as another purpose I can understand. Maybe have a Ranger shoot some kind of target or overhang to get the party to proceed to the next area, or have a Hunter attempt to slash open the hatch of a ship, while the rest of the party covers him. Stuff like that would demand teamwork AND utilize your abilities. If that's what you mean, then yes, I don't see a problem with that.

I need levels though, it's a measure of how closely powerful and useful a character is in relation to your character.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

So then make PSO2 absolutely nothing like anything in the rest of the series, and turn it into a game where you're pretty much just farmers with your pitchfork in weird places all the time. Sounds kinda bad. Some of the stuff you touched upon is already happening, such as randomized fields. Turning the weapons into tools just sounds stupid. We have the weapons for a reason, we're supposed to be fighting, not waving a stick at them and hoping they leave us alone. Perma death would be ridiculous, as that could probably open up a whole new level of griefing/trolling, not to mention pretty much the entirety of the community afraid of leaving their rooms in fear of losing all the work they put into their character. A penalty for dying, however, I can agree with, but there actually has to be a threat of dying first, since both PSO and PSU had a point where there was nothing to worry about ever.

Now, having the weapons serve as another purpose I can understand. Maybe have a Ranger shoot some kind of target or overhang to get the party to proceed to the next area, or have a Hunter attempt to slash open the hatch of a ship, while the rest of the party covers him. Stuff like that would demand teamwork AND utilize your abilities. If that's what you mean, then yes, I don't see a problem with that.

I need levels though, it's a measure of how closely powerful and useful a character is in relation to your character.

I think we see eye to eye more than you might think at first. Just hear me out okay?

C-mode is a pretty good example of a very prominent part of the series that is arguably better than the main game. C-mode style permadeath would be really fun. Structure the game like arcade style sessions, where you start from a preset equal footing and rapidly gain more abilities and face harsh danger. Whatever cool stuff you gained would be isolated to that session, and lost afterward. Basically, this means, the levels and loot you gained wasn't the point, you're after other goals, like having fun or overcoming a real challenge together with your friends. The point of this structure is that you don't have "fear of losing all the work they put into their character" because YOU and YOUR abilities are the work you put in.Not the superfluous levels and items that only represent how much time you sunk into Skinner Box reward structures. Sure you might lose the mission, but you can always try again. And trying again should be fun, because the random fields should keep the next experience fresh and new. However, like in C-mode, new gear and cool power ups would be dropped like water in each new session, giving you the taste of those cool powers each play session. That is... if you play well and stay alive. Think something like... Left for Dead, only with crazy anime fantasy action and way more random elements.

Tools are a conceptual way to dealing with player abilities. I don't mean, make a sword into a wrench, I mean give the player an ability that can be used in a right way and a wrong way. This is, actually already in effect, although I think it could be improved upon. I think you understand what I mean. New uses for player abilities, whatever they may be, can be found for combat, mobility, and exploration. You know, other types of gameplay (which PSO & PSU totally HAD, and would not be out of place) other than dungeon crawling and killing waves of enemies. You've already cited some examples of clever ways to do just that, and I think they are worth exploring. Like what if we could use our swords as platforms, like all those anime action heroes do. Or what if techniques could be used to increase player mobility, and restrict enemy mobility in a raw physical way. Like creating platforms and walls, or creating wind to let us glide jump over a large ravine.

I'm all for ramped up difficulty modes, but levels are just a pointless distraction that don't actually add anything to the gameplay except a compulsion to level. A compulsion to grind, and to farm. Think of a game without levels. Levels are not intrinsic to representing a players power within a game. Not even online games. Rankings and achievements can already do it better.

Levels are also game breaking. As players we're always searching for a way to "gain the system" and the "dominate strategy." Players are renowned for unintentionally ruining the fun of a game, to make it easier. Levels reward having fun fighting monsters... with less challenging monsters. Compare and contrast to having a separate difficulty mode (featured in both PSO and PSU) where the players can take on new challenges suitable to their abilities AS PLAYERS. Not their emulated abilities as characters.

Phantasy Star Portable 2 introduced a system that makes the monsters level with you to try and maintain balance. But... just exactly what is the point in that? Why not exclude levels all together and maintain a perfect balance in gameplay throughout the game? It really exemplifies how extraneous levels are.

Basically, if you wouldn't play PSO games if they didn't have level ups, you should reconsider playing them at all. Because levels are just blinding you to the fact that the gameplay wouldn't stand up on its own without baiting you into playing compulsively for the next level up.

Watch that video I linked, you'll understand where I'm coming from about my criticisms of level ups.

And finally I can't and don't WANT to make the game anything. The reason I'm posting here to possibly make some awareness about these ideas. I want to change the expectations of players, not change the game. I can not influence the development, especially not single single-handedly and egotistically. What I can do is disseminate ideas. Don't attack these ideas like they're some kind of personal affront to your ego, because they're not. I get you like PSO, and I do too. Please understand that criticism is experience for learning, not an attack. I really want to collaborate intellectually, not bait argument and pointless bickering.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Sorry, I'll play nethack when I want to play nethack.

[Zarode]

Sure, I'd love a Hardcore mode in PSO2, but I'd like to leave it as an option. The Internet as a whole is just a giant prick waiting to ruin your fun. I'd hate to solo for something you are suppose to work together with.

[Split]

Something tells me PSO2 won't be a rogue-like. It would be neat though...

[Eidolus_Dyne]

When Sakai said that he wanted an infinite adventure, and new surprise and discovery... I don't think that this could be achieved without borrowing from rogue-like game design principals. I'm sure we'll see some of them in action, and if it becomes a trend... more and more of them in subsequent releases. Phantasy Star has been rapidly becoming more and more action oriented. That is, giving the player more control. Gone are the days of dice roll misses, here is the advent of the dodge roll, manual block, and jumping. Mobility abilities will be given more light and consideration after jumping, just as jumping was preceded by dodge-roll. The gameplay is already much more different in terms of interfance and control compared to net-hack, but... rogue-like principals are proven successful models in action games. Spelunky is a great example. Not only are rogue-like rules more thrilling, but also more engaging and promote a wider array of interesting outcomes. Not to mention, make failure scenarios interesting. Basically, it's HOW you can achieve a failure state that's interesting.

@Zarode
I don't doubt we're going to see the return of c-mode in PSO2. So, ultimately I'll get my chance to play rogue-like PSO2. I just want to plant that little seed of doubt... maybe we don't need the compulsion of level ups and rare drops. Maybe a game like this could achieve that near endless re-playability without cheap tricks and psychological manipulation. Wouldn't that be cool?

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I think the way PSO did it was perfect. You've got the long-term play of your main character with leveling up and hunting some sweet booty, and you've also got challenge mode for when you want a more skill-based, errr, challenge with limited equipment and abilities.


There really isn't anything wrong with having leveling in a game like this. Removing rare hunting would completely retarded, since that is pretty much the heart and soul of this genre. They are both things that are necessary to hold the attention of the vast majority of players in the long term.

[Ark22]

Challenge mode is what separates the Great from the team workers