Subjob Discussion

[Zorafim]

Subclasses are coming out soon, and I'm sure we want to discuss our plans. I'm sure many of us are going to go with themes for our characters, but I want to discuss the pros and cons for each sub class, and the suggested subclass for each class.

Jobs as subclasses:

Spoiler!

Hunter:
Hunter's man draws are fury stance and guard stance. With fury stance, we gain attack power to striking and ranged attacks. A spec with fury stance should also cap out JA bonus, giving us 20% more damage. With guard stance, we gain striking defense at a penalty of striking and ranged attack. It also goes without saying that we'll gain mainly striking attack and defense from this as a subjob, giving us access to melee weapons and armor faster as melee classes. We'll also have more HP than most other classes.
This seems like a strong class for any ranged or melee class. If you need more survivability, it can also provide more striking defense. None of the skills effect teching attack or defense, which might work well for a defense build on the teching classes.

Ranger:
Weak Shot is pretty much the only draw of this class. Shooting weak spots will also deal 50% more damage than normal with both Weak Hit +s capped, but only with guns. A useful subjob against bosses while in a party, or for boosting ranged attack and defense. But doesn't stand out while soloing. Also, weak shot doesn't work without a rifle, which may be a problem for many players.
Rangers also have access to traps, and ability boosting abilities. Both can be used on any class, which will allow Ranger to be a non-specific subclass if you're leveling a class without a better sub.

Force:
Almost every skill in the fire tree is great for teching classes, especially charge PP revival. With force, you'll deal much more damage with techs. However, there's no boost to anything non-teching related, meaning this class is probably only useful for techer.
It should also be noted that using a tech without a melee weapon will be like striking unarmed with a non-melee class. It can provide damage, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Fighter:
The entirety of Fighter's skill tree is providing additional damage when striking certain points of the enemy. For classes that get around to an enemy's front or back, this class can provide a great damage boost. But if you're at a range, you might be gambling too much for this subclass to be useful.

Gunner:
I can't really find a great bonus to this class. You get chain trigger, allowing you to get more damage on a specific point if a combo is built up, at a cooldown. You can also increase the amount of PP you regenerate per hit, or do more damage to flying enemies. Both these make it an interesting choice for dagger users, but I think there are stronger choices.

Techer:
This class has a cooldown that regenerates PP quickly, at a cooldown. It has another skill that boosts passive PP regeneration by 40%. It also has resta, and enough boosts to resta to make it useful even without a teching weapon. But, it doesn't have any real damage bonuses.

Suggested subclasses:

Spoiler!

Hunter:

/Fighter
Since hunter's at a close range, it can more easily get around enemies, taking full advantage of the position stances. It can also take full advantage to the strike and defense up skills, along with the step advance. Overall, the two classes work well together.


Ranger:

/Hunter
Fury Stance and JA bonus works with guns, allowing you to take full advantage of the fury tree. There also aren't any Satk+s down this tree, meaning you don't waste many points in useless skills.

/Techer
Against bosses, your greatest damage comes during weak shot. If you have three or more weak shots, you quickly become PP starved. Passive PP regeneration and PP convert allows you to shoot more during weak shot, getting in more damage.


Force:

/Techer
Techer mostly provides bonuses to techs, which force can take advantage of. The PP convert works with Charge PP revival, letting you nuke while recovering PP. The passive PP boost will be useful while charging techs, too.


Fighter:

/Hunter
Fury Stance and JA bonus provide great damage boosts, and none of the stat ups are wasted.


Gunner:

/Fighter
Gunner is a short range, mobile class. They should have the mobility to take full advantage of fighter's stances.

/Ranger
Weakshot, weak hit plus, and the random Ratk and Rdfp will work fully with gunner. This will be a strong choice when going up against bosses, especially with a group.


Techer:

/Force
PP charge revival is enough of a reason to chose force. With it, PP convert is much stronger. It also provides better damage with charged techs, and its elemental masteries are stronger than techer's (Except for ice).

/Fighter
Techer is sort of a hybrid class. It does alot of damage with its techs, but its melee strikes do massive damage as well. If you want to boost this part of it, consider fighter. You'll be close range, allowing you to get into position for your stance. Your stance also benefits your techs, so it's good for both parts of your class.

Let me hear your thoughts on the matter. Did I miss any advantages for a specific class that might work well with other classes? Are there any combos that would work just as well as what I listed? Should I include classes that won't work well together?

[Dammy]

hunter may be interesting choice for force
because of guard stance, which doesnt lower t-atk at all but can provide +200 s-def
also automate halfline can be useful

but im not sure if that can be better than force/techer combo

[Zorafim]

Maybe I'm not giving Guard Stance spec enough credit, since I've never tried Guard Stance. My problem with it was that it doesn't provide any non-defensive abilities. Everything there is designed around keeping you alive. It seemed like I could do that pretty well on my own without the additional defensive abilities.
Well, except on the Snow Banshee fight. Seems like you can never have enough defense for that fight.

[jooozek]

May I suggest a small change in formation of the list in your post? I'd go with:

Spoiler!

1) class
a) subclass
b) subclass
c) subclass
2) class
a) subclass
b) subclass

Would be much easier to read.

[CelestialBlade]

Going Fighter/Hunter myself to take advantage of my 120% JAs and the stat boosts. It's not a ton of variety but it'll make Fighter that much stronger than it already is.

Consider Fighter/Gunner if you're a heavy Dagger user too. You'll get extra damage against aerial mobs and the extra PP per hit keeps you in the air longer.

[Inazuma]

Force/Techter for me

All 6 element masteries, and hopefully enough PP regen to keep up with non-fire techs. Rods are stronger than wands, so I won't have any weapon issues like other class combinations.

The end result will be what the Force class should have been from the start. It got split into two classes, so I will just have to put them together again.

[Slidikins]

My thoughts may be misplaced because I'm not as keen on min/maxing as some people on this board, but a couple of notes:

- Ranger as a subclass: Rangers have Traps. They don't get much love in these parts but they have them. They also have 100 Ability in their class tree. Both of those you can grab without needing a specific weapon. Probably not enough to convince you away from another subclass, but I think it's worth noting.

- Techer Subclass options: (I'm personally going Techer sub-Ranger) I think Fighter could be a good subclass for Techer. I get a lot more out of my S-Atk than T-Atk on Techer. Casting is really just to charge up my Wand Gear and/or poison enemies. A Techer could grab up to +100 S-Atk and a tricked out Wise Stance from the Wise Stance branch alone (in 45 points). Techer's mirage escape + lock on will make getting behind an enemy fairly easy. You can pretty much do the same thing with Brave Stance if you want. Or grab more HP to support the so-called beefiness of Techer.

Probably both sub-optimal options, but they crossed my mind. As for my Techer/Ranger, it's definitely sub-optimal but it seems like it'd be fun to play

[Coatl]

May I suggest a small change in formation of the list in your post? I'd go with:

Spoiler!

1) class
a) subclass
b) subclass
c) subclass
2) class
a) subclass
b) subclass

Would be much easier to read.

This.
Your post is detailed but it would be nice if it were more, uh, ergonomic.

[Zorafim]

It did kind of irk me how my paragraphs were sorted in the suggested subclass area. I almost considered using a programmer's paragraph form, but then you'd all wonder why there were so many parenthesis and tabs. I think the FFXI method of subclass denoting made that section look a bit better.

Chelsea, your suggestion for gunner as fighter's sub was interesting. I didn't even consider the paring of the two. But, aerial strike + would have to overcome fighter's +20% damage and fury stance for it to be worth it, and that's only one specific situation where it'd be good. If you use another weapon for trash, or are going against enemies which can't be launched, it won't be as useful as hunter.

Slidikins (awesome name), fighter stances is a good idea for techer. Since they're stuck in melee, they'll probably the best non-melee class to sub hunter. I don't think it'll be able to keep up with Rafoie spam, but it'll provide more incentive to play with a melee centric playstyle. Plus, the stances boost techs too, I believe. As long as you stay in front or behind the enemy, fighter will be doing its job. Can you vouch for wand strikes only using Satk, though? Even the second, elemental hit? I was kind of under the impression that the gear hit used Tatk, but I haven't tested it.
And I didn't include traps or ability, because I haven't heard much positive feedback about either of them. I probably should mention your points in my post, though.

[Slidikins]

Can you vouch for wand strikes only using Satk, though? Even the second, elemental hit? I was kind of under the impression that the gear hit used T-Atk, but I haven't tested it.

I was under that impression as well but I asked in the Techer discussion and the only response supported S-Atk. The JP Wiki states T-Atk, however, so more testing is definitely needed. None the less, more S-Atk is not wasted on a Techer. On mine I get a lot more mileage out of melee hits than Rafoie spam, but that's because i geared for more S-Atk (and hopefully will have wands with better elements).