Gunner.... An Advanced or Broken Class?

[Artificial Sky]

ZcRaider, that's the nature of discussions. I know that when I've taken the time and energy to develop my thoughts, I become attached to them. It's something natural for everyone except for the most aloof debaters. I feel for you. People will be rough with you. You will have to clarify things as many times as the discussion asks of you. As much as you feel others aren't contributing to your discussion, or respecting your opinion, the outburst definitely didn't help. But you realize that, and that's cool.

Hey guys

Well, I think we pretty much covered this class! The Good...The Bad...and The ugly heh.

So.... To sum things off, I made a youtube video highlighting what i feel is:

------> The Best.....That This Class Can Offer. <-------


Hope you guys enjoy the show!

http://youtu.be/6yoBuAugy2g

Now, to get to my argument:

Is this the best that the Gunner class can offer? I do not know. When I saw this post, I got really excited because I thought I was about to see a hardcore player completely tear up a boss. Perhaps the player would've demonstrated emergent game-play, like an effective Showtime build, etc. After thirty seconds, I realized that this wasn't the case. Instead, I saw flawed execution.

So the question is: What point are you trying to get across, if this video is the culmination of your style as a Gunner?

Your first point:
Why is playing safe better than playing efficiently? You've provided some examples, and I paraphrase: You die more often. You inconvenience your allies. You provide yourself with space to build up your Gear. These are true! Yes! But, an efficient, speedy player could do all of this as well. Therefore, doesn't it become a question of skill or efficiency, rather than style? Should a player prefer safe play over more exp and meseta (from drops) in less amount of time?

Disclaimer:
I am not assuming that you will use the following counter-argument, but its overall popularity warrants preemptive rebuttal.
(No, the common argument, "to have more fun" is not viable, because what's fun varies between people. Some players have more fun playing casually, some players obtain it by playing hardcore. Some have no fun at all, some have it with everything.)

Second Point:
Using PAs and moving in close to the enemy does not mean that the player will get hit more often. It does increase the chances! But there is no absolute.

Also, think of all the lost damage potential by not using PAs. The skillful Gunner will time dodges accordingly. He or she will achieve both practicality (playing safe), and efficiency. Again, it becomes a question of player skill, not style.

Point three:
: ( Why are you calling names? Nobody feels good afterwards.

Aerial Shooting: The charged up kick attack. I think this debate revolved around the Dead Approach vs. Aerial Shooting. Which is superior? I prefer Aerial Shooting as you do. But the posters, gigawuts in particular, have made compelling cases for using Dead Approach over Aerial Shooting. Of course, the two aren't mutually exclusive, why not use both for different situations? You've said this and I concur.

Fourth Point:
Is building up Gear important enough to spend extra time on? After you built up your Gear on that enemy, you went and killed it right away. Was it safe? Yes it was. But again, is it necessary? Can't Gear be built up in a more organic manner, rather than forcefully slowing down pace?

Final Point:
I know nothing about Force weapons or their DPS, so I'll reserve my judgment.

[ZcRaider]

Thank you artificial. I respect that someone here is using the power of reason. The the majority of my sentiments are aimed in the context of Dinosaurs statements which lack warrents. Thats a debate term. Further more, there are a lot of extreamely critical remarks being made, without ANY form of citation. Could be a youtube video, could be some FAQ. But so far, people have just thrown in there opinions, and draw there conclusions just because my video isnt a super boss killer.

My whole point, which has been danced around so many times, and degraded, is an unanswered challenge that i have made. I have, at multiple times stated, that I am not the best. That there are people out there with better skills as a gunner. I simply provided what i felt was the best gunner has to offer for me. And showed how to use one in a conservative manner.

If somebody can use this class at melting mobs of enemy quicker and more effeciently, than post a video of it. Show me. And i will HAPPLY change my viewpoint.

But what people seem to be dancing around so much is how tricky this class is. You cannot simply walk up to a crowd of enemys and melt them as fast as other classes. Yet this is what people are expecting. Which leads me to believe that because they are so eagar to see this, its NOT HAPPENING. So they want to see someone doing these incredable feats with gunner. My answer is, that currently, post Patch that is, its NOT POSSIBLE, without making yourself as a LIEBILITY for the other team. The only counter point that was given that had the most weight in my opinion is ONE BOSS SOLO VIDEO that spammed Satilite Aim as a chain finisher.

Pracitally speaking so far, the only real point that i accept, is that Gunner with enough practice, is a good boss finisher.

Other than that, i have no reason to change my viewpoints.

I personally have died more times with a pair of mechguns in my hands than any other class when i first started out. Now, with the techinque i showed, I can keep up with the party and actually do some good. Im going to assume that MANY others are having this problem with this class. Maybe when I login, and check out this new PA for Gunner, these problems will be fixed.

Bascially, I feel that peoples expectations for this class are sorely inflated.

Itemization of your points:

1.) I can see where your goin. Its a matter of personal taste. Because im a team based player. I play many games like, L4d, Killing Floor, Borderlands 2, just to name a few. I prefer a play style that does both Mr. Sky. I want to be able to melt things quickly, and be relatively safe.

But as the saying goes, "A good offense is a good Defensive" This gunner class just isnt that. I feel that it is a light Defensive class. This is my opinion. And that is why if feel that this class does not have much to offer me at present other than what i displayed.

Now to be a little redundant, I concur with Yunfa's youtube post. Dont know if it was actually him or not, but was the only one here that successfully changed my viewpoint of this class. Because he has working proof. I have changed my mind, and decided that this class is good against bosses. Which I gave YunFa double credit for, and made an addition to my bold statement of what "I FELT" was the best this class has to offer.

My challenge still stands. Somebody make a video of a Gunner Melting things as Fast as say...a Fighter, without dieing all over the place, using a different set techniques than what i have listed. This person will have my deepest respect.

2.) I agree to disagree. Probability and game mechanics, in my perspective, have taught me that if your are close to the enemy you will get the aggro eventually if you do enough damage. If not initialy, getting the aggro. And if you miss, or dont kill the enemy, thats one more for you to forget, and with this class its a killer. I have been blind sided so many times at the end of my jumps and PA's its not even funny anymore. And, as was consented in this thread, im not the only one trying to make this tricky class work. There is a whole other thread about this as well. My question to you, why dont you ask that question to the Front Line USA soldiers of Vietnam. Ask them what happend during the begin phase of there attack. They rushed, and got killed. Why? Because of poor planning, rushing in close because of Bad Intel, and home field disadvantage. Now you might say, well ZcRaider...thats RL. This is a video game,you have respawn and moons. I accept that. But, just like you dont seem to have a problem with dieing and waisting other peoples moons because you want quick meseta and exp, I dont like dieing, and I like to be a overall productive team member, even if its a multiparty. And with other classes, you CAN be aggressive and not die as often. And finally, when you solo, you ALWAYS HAVE AGGRO, so you WILL get hit, if you ARE TO CLOSE without an OFFENSIVE MOVE that is Practical.

3.) Can you think of a softer word for someone who presents there findings in a negative way, thats not even a fact. "Ignorant" is a condition, not name calling. For it to be "name calling" it would have to be a "Noun". The word in question is technically called an "abjective" Is it possitive? No. Sry for being human. Furthermore, if you are refencing my use of "Trolling" That again is NOT a noun. It is a present participle. I was mearly stating that his ACTIONS reflect Trolling. Not that he is...a "TROLL".

4.) Where is this PA called Aerial Shooting? Please, if you find it, let me know. If you are refering too バレットスコール, thats called Barrett Squall, the rain bullet move. And if the debate was about Approach Dead vs Barrett Squall, well thats just a matter of play style and opinion. I learned of some uses for Approach Dead due to the influence of "gigawuts" and "valmont". Still, dont think it works well for me. Someone else, it could be a awesome move, but im still not sold on it. It trys to make the class more offensive, without yielding enough damage in my opinion. And to combo it uses up 50pp, when i could have done 1x Charge kick or Eriaru shooting /エリアルシューティング for only 20pp. And whether or not I have a lot of PP is irrelevant. Its a move shared with all, and not everyone has my Armor setup. Now if it did 1k worth of damage on an UNCHAINED area..and stuned the enemy instead of knockin them back...then i would use it more often. Maybe when i hit Level 40 i might actually do 1k of damage..but as for now, I dont have a use for it. If you are refering to エリアルシューティング, Eriaru Shooting, then i agree. I feel its better than Approach Dead. But I respect Gigawuts opinion, and others as well.

5.) Yes. I agree. However i differ to the notion, that mechgun chip damage is a great "offensive is defensive" move, adopting the "come get some" reference i made which had possitive remarks attach to it. This builds the gear, then safely DESTROYS the enemy instead of hoping with PA's with no charge. And for the last time, my video is NOT A TIME ATTACK. Maybe i will do one in the future. But it is casual play, showing different setups and practical uses for the dodges agaisnt mobs. And i took my time with the mobile turrents because they cheat sometimes with there sidestrafing. This is the Best that this class has to offer for me. A light defensive class. Now again, somebody show me a vid of a person using this class in an Extreame Time Attack, face paced manor, melting mobs of enemys with ease. And i dont mean underleveled enemys either. And if there are able to do this, POWER TO THEM. But if i see techinques that i have talked about in there video, it will strengthen my case. If they die a lot, it strengthens my case. If they edit the video, and remove the parts where they died, its would be non-conclusive.

6.) LOL, you have 5 points instead of 4 bro. You didnt label your "Aerial Shooting" Not including your "final' and "disclaimer references"

In conclusion relating to the scope of this thread:

I really think the people's idea for this class, are HIGHLY OVERRATED. The way sega has setup this class, there is plenty of potential. However, a lot of the PA's are very very tricky to setup effectively, and CONSISTANTLY. Until, these flaws are corrected, or someone posts a video of a more practical use for this class with workarounds to these flaws, I wont be be inclined to change my viewpoint. I will take the time and state that I am slightly offended. I people are more inclined to tear down and not build. I post a video of my own techniques, and express them as the best this class has to offer for me. Take it or leave it. Its ok for someone to disagree. Its good, now show me a better way. But instead i get a bunch of negative opinions, with no citations or visual proof that my viewpoint is flawed. Yunfa was the only one, gracious enough to upload a youtube video showing Practial use for this class, and I highly respect him for it. He showed me a practical use for this gunner class against bosses. For that I thank him.

I said it once and I will say it again: "If you cant say something nice, dont say it at all" If you disagree. Great. But dont press that disagreement on me with no warrents. And dont bash my hard work and video without proof. I dont mind constructive critisism, but this is crazy.

[ZcRaider]

Well it seems there have been some serious changes to this class after the update. 60% of the issues raised in this thread are actually fixed hahah. Sega is really doing a good job listening to the people and making changes.

I think im gonna conclude this thread. As of the patch, the information is now old, and irrelevent. Besides the overall feel and structure that I was trying to maintain, well..has been diluted. Lack of a better word.

My highest respect to those who contribued positive and contructive lights to my finds. To everyone else, well no grudges. After all, this is a free forum. It is inevitable that the ugly gets presented with the Good.

As for the rest of my findings, and my furture video, I will be keeping to myself. I will make positive improvement from what i find, and the suggestions of others in similar threads. As for the video, i will leave up on youtube as an "Introduction to what i feel, is the best this class has to offer" And if all else fails, theres entertainment value for those who dont main this class.

As for me, I will being working my best to unlock the subclasses and recreate my Favorite Class of Old Times... the "fighgunner"

This is Zcraider, signing off this thread for good.

P.S: Forum Moderator, I leave the rest to you.

[Carillon]

what all changed, if you don't mind?
i don't play gunner much.

[ZcRaider]

Please consult this thread for any future inquires:

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/show...200779&page=25

[Dinosaur]

If somebody can use this class at melting mobs of enemy quicker and more effeciently, than post a video of it. Show me. And i will HAPPLY change my viewpoint.

I said it before and I'll say it again: All you have to do is charged Aerial Shooting and follow it up on every enemy. That is the basis mobbing with Twin Mechgun. You do that move, they die in the following combo. Then you normal attack until you have enough PP for the combo again, then do the combo again.

PS: You know the Japanese name of the PA but not the English name(even though the Japanese name is pronounced as the English name)? Really?

[Onvirtual]

Where is this PA called Aerial Shooting? Please, if you find it, let me know. If you are refering too バレットスコール, thats called Barrett Squall, the rain bullet move. And if the debate was about Approach Dead vs Barrett Squall, well thats just a matter of play style and opinion. I learned of some uses for Approach Dead due to the influence of "gigawuts" and "valmont". Still, dont think it works well for me. Someone else, it could be a awesome move, but im still not sold on it. It trys to make the class more offensive, without yielding enough damage in my opinion. And to combo it uses up 50pp, when i could have done 1x Charge kick or Eriaru shooting /エリアルシューティング for only 20pp. And whether or not I have a lot of PP is irrelevant. Its a move shared with all, and not everyone has my Armor setup. Now if it did 1k worth of damage on an UNCHAINED area..and stuned the enemy instead of knockin them back...then i would use it more often. Maybe when i hit Level 40 i might actually do 1k of damage..but as for now, I dont have a use for it. If you are refering to エリアルシューティング, Eriaru Shooting, then i agree. I feel its better than Approach Dead. But I respect Gigawuts opinion, and others as well.

Sorry above all the wall of text you posted, only this small tid bits caught my mind... You asked a question then asnwer it yourself... D'oh!!!

[Geistritter]

Overall this topic was a massive waste of time, and your post amusingly sums up why, Onvirtual; it's just a bunch of conjecture from someone who doesn't really know what they're dealing with or what they're doing, and then dismisses it as if this is everyone else's experience with it.

[ZcRaider]

First I would like to say, that i am overwhelmed by the ignorant statements being made in this tread. I have made, very valid points and observations in my thread, and people draw there conclusions and bad mouth me without addressing the issues i have raised. I have bulleted EVERY single point made against me, and then some random forum poster just skims past what i have done, and makes there own conclusive inaccurate statements.

This is madness, and I will think twice about sharing anything else on these forums again. I have been respectful. I have be understanding. And i listen to what is being shared. Did i blow up a little bit when I was met with some critical reception. Yea, a little. I consent to that. But it was not unwarrented. And my challenge still has gone unanswered. All these people, telling me i dont know what im talking about, or what im doing, and i have YET....TO SEE... SOMEONE MAKE A VIDEO PROVING MY OBSERVATIONS WRONG. And the context, cannot not be done anymore because sega has made changes to the class. So its pointless to keep adding to this thread anymore. Even after I redirected it.

My statements about this class, Post patch, were based on what i noticed. I payed close attention how people used this class. I spend the better part of a week, with my own findings. But, no where have I intentionally made the notion that my way of doing this is the BEST WAY FOR EVERYONE.

People really do get too comfortable behind there anonymousness. If this was a court of law with a judge, 50% of the comments on here would not have been made, because it would have been laughed upon because of the lack of citation, and the lack of proof.

I do not know know why this thread has turned into a Bash Mr. ZcRaider. Maybe because i refuse to let people say whatever the hell they want about my work, without at least providing warrents, and proof otherwise. Maybe i pissed of some dude thats really popular here, and there is a plot. I really dont know.

Its one thing to disagree. Its another to be completly ignorant of what has been posted, and to impose opinions, as if they where fact. Especially in a manner that is negative.

I am extreamely dissappointed with these individuals:

I said it before and I'll say it again: All you have to do is charged Aerial Shooting and follow it up on every enemy. That is the basis mobbing with Twin Mechgun. You do that move, they die in the following combo. Then you normal attack until you have enough PP for the combo again, then do the combo again.

PS: You know the Japanese name of the PA but not the English name(even though the Japanese name is pronounced as the English name)? Really?

Correct me if im wrong, but the only charged move is the Kick that i have been talking about, which is Eriaru shooting /エリアルシューティング, and again, Mr.dinosaur "4.) Where is this PA called Aerial Shooting?" Can you NOT READ? And what is your point? "All you have to do" or "That is the basis mobbing" These are sweaping statements. Im pretty sure "everyone" does not agree with this. Im glad it works for you. Yet you made no room to be humble about it. You dedicated it to an absolute statement. What are you talkin about dinosaur? Are you giving me a suggestion on how to combo, or telling everyone THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE? Great thanks, noted. But the context of your statments is in a tone that rebukes, like your correcting me. What are you correcting? If anything you have shown your own incompetence with the japanese language, and have not accurately understood my point. Before you talk about this class agian, you should consult this link: http://wikiwiki.asia

Sorry above all the wall of text you posted, only this small tid bits caught my mind... You asked a question then asnwer it yourself... D'oh!!!

I would like to think that the context of your statement was humorious. But given the negative vibe this thread has now..i cant really assume that. FYI, i answered some of my own questions on purpose.

Overall this topic was a massive waste of time, and your post amusingly sums up why, Onvirtual; it's just a bunch of conjecture from someone who doesn't really know what they're dealing with or what they're doing, and then dismisses it as if this is everyone else's experience with it.

Yet another poster who has just skipped past all my Itemized points, and comments of not just me, but the whole thread. WTF. REALLY? What do I not know how to do? What do i really not know how to deal with? And how am i wrong bout my conjecture that people find this class tricky? I filled that in as a courtesy. Stop putting words in my mouth, and making inaccurate sweaping statements.

*EDIT: I looked at your statement again. Im trying to follow its context. "Its just" What is "it". If your talking about my work, my rebuttle stands. But if your talkin about some of the ignorant statements made in this thread, i agree with you, and retract my dissapproval. And for the record, I dont think this thread was a massive waste of time. For what is an internet forum in nature? Its just a place where people put there thoughts together and share, good or bad. In that context, it was NOT a waste of time. Now if your saying this thread was a massive failure in a popularity contest....i would be inclined to agree. I failed there.

WTF people really? My sentiments are aimed at Dinosaur. Yet one by one, people are jumping into this whirlpool of negativity, without reading this whole thread, and acting like im talking to them.

This whole thread has become really sad. Where is the forum moderator? Can someone please shed an impartial voice of reason? Am i really overreacting here? Why this thread even still open?

[Dinosaur]

Here look, a video. Happy? Will you relax on the wall-o-texts now?

Mode is Very Hard. I even threw in two swag ass Dead Approach wall bounce combos in the end.