Braver Class Talk

[Zenobia]

I'm calling you guys out too. Quit it.

*Mumbles*

Spoiler!

[Xaelouse]

So anyway yeah HU/BR is actually pretty good when you're a wired lance user. Unless you just want to spam overend on everything, it's easy to position yourself correctly with sword and partizan though.

[Cyclon]

But position does matter because we're talking about a melee class, with various different PAs that have varying different melee ranges. So I think it's a bit obtuse to say that positioning of either you or the mob isn't important.

If everything the Hunter did worked like Grants or Namegid, then yeah, positioning isn't very important.

It is. I'm not saying it isn't in general. I was only speaking in the context of brave/wise stance.

[Zipzo]

It is. I'm not saying it isn't in general. I was only speaking in the context of brave/wise stance.

Well the two concepts are intertwined, really.

The range/reach or the damage you do with Brave or Wise is limited by the weapon or PA you are using. You have to account for both conditions when deciding when and where to do damage. To put this in to context of what I mentioned in my original post on HU/BR, I was saying that usually you are "facing" the boss because you have aggro and often heads are a glorious wealth of weak spots on a lot of bosses. This means that a Weak Stance running player will match the damage of a HU/FI player who's obviously running Brave in the same circumstance, but additionally, the HU/BR has the option of going after other weak points, given they don't have aggro, that might not be tailored to the front of the boss (like tails or what have you), while still matching HU/FI damage.

Though as I said, in a circumstance where a FI can happily use Wise Stance, the gloves are just off.

[Arcypher]

Now that I've 60'd Braver I've had the chance to do some experimentation with different things and...

I stand before the jury today to present a case for...Braver as a sub to Hunter. HU/BRA.

A close examination of both the Braver and Fighter tree will leave you thinking that there's a clear and obvious winner. Brave and Wise give 40% and 60% respectively, while Average and Weak give 20% and 40% respectively, the key factor here being that each of these stances have a different set of conditions with the exception of Average Stance.

For general running around and loligagging you're likely to run A.Stance. As a fighter you generally tend to run with B.Stance (because *gasp* mobs spawn in front of you). You lose 20% of your potential but gain the versatility of not having to bother positioning yourself to make sure you're in front of your target. So while the damage % loss is existent, I think there could be at least something to be said for a stance that requires absolutely no attention to detail. Maybe not from a DPS perspective, but from a practical one.

The major thing to note is that Brave is often the most activated stance when you have a FI sub. Bosses are generally facing you anyway because you're doing so much damage and you probably have aggro. There are a few select situations on certain bosses where you'll put wise. Most often bosses have a weak point, which means if you're diligent enough to hit it, you can have W.Stance active and be matching the damage of a HU/FI running Brave (which is mostly all of them most of the time) without worrying about positioning, just aim for the weak points and as long as you do that your output has the same potential as a HU/FI, with simply a conditional measure.

However, in circumstance where a HU/FI can have Wise Activated, unfortunately the HU/BR lacks the ability to close that damage gap, but it's a good thing these specific circumstances aren't nearly as common as brave stance for logical reasons at that.

You get a stronger Assault Buster (I think this is a pretty significant mention) if you take the charge skill, and if you tailor a Braver tree specifically as a sub you can max J.Recovery for a 20% heal on every J.Reversal (which can be pretty significant as well). If you let ability get on to your mag since raising any of the main stats with weapons also raises ability, you can max Braver Mag and make some extra stats out of that, increasing the overall level of your mag, and the base stats it gives you. Having A.Stance is also way more condusive to "AOE-like" PAs. The new Wirelance PA is an amazing example, actually. It hits everything around you in a "kanran-like" way but much smaller range, but if you're using it as a brave or wise stance HU/FI in the middle of mobs, you're going to lose a significant portion of that damage somewhere, while A.stance lets you close the gap by simply increasing the damage no matter whether frontal or rear. This also goes for Other Spin (commonly used), Heavenly Fall...a lot of the WL PAs actually...and several of the other Weapons PAs.

Overall I feel like you have the ability to be "lazier" by using average stance, that it's an incredibly close race in mobbing potential due to being able to use "AOE" PAs more effectively, and ultimately you can match the output of a HU/FI in most boss situations but with simply a different conditional dynamic from the FI stances. The one thing about FI is really that Fighters conditions aren't quite as "strict" as Weak Stance, I suppose you could say.

I wouldn't have really ever preached Braver as a viable sub, but I'm prancing around lately as a 60/60 HU/BRA and I'm feeling pretty positive about it.

Thoughts?

I'm a lowbie, but I'd like to put some input.

Assuming the players using this main/sub set-up can hit weak points often enough, yes, this build potentially does have incredible damage output with Weak stance + Brave Stance (Wise Stance, if the back has a weak point) or Fury Stance as HU.

Of course, no one can 100% hit a weak point all the time. Bosses can do some slippy things every once in a while. However, if the person can hit a weak point 3/4s of the time without much issue, then yes, the damage potential is extremely high.

Here's where the problem starts: A. Stance Charge and Weak Stance Charge. Let's assume we just use charge PAs on bosses (This is extremely unlikely, but very possible). Hitting a weak point that isn't in close reach or is very angle sensitive can screw up Weak Stance's Charge damage boost (Assuming hitting a weak point will only activate it). In a way, using A. Stance would do more damage overall.

This also applies to mobs. A. Stance Charge will be more consistent.

I know the presented situation is very unlikely, but then you got your people who like to do gimped boss fights and such.

[Cyclon]

Well the two concepts are intertwined, really.

The range/reach or the damage you do with Brave or Wise is limited by the weapon or PA you are using. You have to account for both conditions when deciding when and where to do damage. To put this in to context of what I mentioned in my original post on HU/BR, I was saying that usually you are "facing" the boss because you have aggro and often heads are a glorious wealth of weak spots on a lot of bosses. This means that a Weak Stance running player will match the damage of a HU/FI player who's obviously running Brave in the same circumstance, but additionally, the HU/BR has the option of going after other weak points, given they don't have aggro, that might not be tailored to the front of the boss (like tails or what have you), while still matching HU/FI damage.

Though as I said, in a circumstance where a FI can happily use Wise Stance, the gloves are just off.

I have perfectly understood and accepted your point about bosses. All I did was say your point about aoe being better because brave/wise stance won't apply at all times was pretty moot, because brave pretty much will. And then I tried to explain why.

[Zipzo]

I have perfectly understood and accepted your point about bosses. All I did was say your point about aoe being better because brave/wise stance won't apply at all times was pretty moot, because brave pretty much will. And then I tried to explain why.

Okay I think actually understand what you're saying.

What you're saying though, assumes that when in the middle of a group of mobs, that every single mob is facing you and I actually think that this would be a pretty rare circumstance.

Waves of mobs spawn facing in the direction of the on-coming party. If you're, say, a Katana main and you want to run in to the middle and use Kanran, I guarantee you by the time the mobs are dead a good half or more of them were probably not facing you.

More often than not it's like this...excuse the lack of Paint skills...



I think that this is the most common situation by leaps and bounds above one where all the enemies are facing inward at you.

[Cyclon]

Okay I think actually understand what you're saying.

What you're saying though, assumes that when in the middle of a group of mobs, that every single mob is facing you and I actually think that this would be a pretty rare circumstance.

Waves of mobs spawn facing in the direction of the on-coming party. If you're, say, a Katana main and you want to run in to the middle and use Kanran, I guarantee you by the time the mobs are dead a good half or more of them were probably not facing you.

More often than not it's like this...excuse the lack of Paint skills...



I think that this is the most common situation by leaps and bounds above one where all the enemies are facing inward at you.

Your image doesn't show for me:3 I did comment about Kanran. But it's pretty unique and you're not using katana in this situation, or so I thought you didn't plan to(as a Hu/BRA). And really, mobs are pretty fast to react to your presence. They just take forever to decide to attack.
Edit: Oh, I see it now
Well my experience says otherwise but I do play alone most of the time. So enemies have nothing else to face.
Maybe I'm wrong. Hard to say without starting to record ourselves running AQs or something.

[Zipzo]

Your image doesn't show for me:3 I did comment about Kanran. But it's pretty unique and you're not using katana in this situation, or so I thought you didn't plan to(as a Hu/BRA). And really, mobs are pretty fast to react to your presence. They just take forever to decide to attack.

In my experience mobs tend to die long before their facing even has a chance to change from the default spawn facing.

Of course this doesn't happen all the time, but even given the mob survives long after it spawns, mobs don't pivot very quickly.

Also there are other PAs that do AOE type damage aside from Kanran. In my first example I used the new WL PA. Although the range is quite a bit smaller than Kanran, if it will hit everything it's quite effective.

[Cyclon]

In my experience mobs tend to die long before their facing even has a chance to change from the default spawn facing.

Of course this doesn't happen all the time, but even given the mob survives long after it spawns, mobs don't pivot very quickly.

Also there are other PAs that do AOE type damage aside from Kanran. In my first example I used the new WL PA. Although the range is quite a bit smaller than Kanran, if it will hit everything it's quite effective.

Yup, but the range is the matter here. You're less likely to hit monsters that didn't come at you in the first place with a smaller aoe. Kanran's circular range is something nothing else even comes close to. Most PAs rarely hit behind as it is.
I guess you could say slide shaker does, but it's generally too bad to be used at all.