Spiral Knights

[Cyron Tanryoku]

Could never get into this. And I got far.
I should see the last time I played
Edit: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...s/?id=75201383
Early June last year jesus

[Kent]

What and when exactly is the "paywall". I played this a little bit a long time ago but I had other gaming priorities at the time. I might consider picking it back up since I have some limited items from Steam promotions.

The game works on a timer system where you accumulate 100 units of "mist energy" over the course of 22 hours (so effectively, a full charge of your mist energy per day). Mist energy caps out at 100, crystal energy is a more permanent option and is accumulated through throwing real money at the game.

When you go into a dungeon, you pay 10 energy. Whenever you go to a new floor in a dungeon, you also pay 10 energy. This always comes out of your mist energy first (because it's the most volatile in nature, and you generate it passively).

Without paying, this means you can only go to a certain depth in a dungeon per day... Assuming you don't take any detours (there are special rooms you can unlock using energy that will sometimes come up, usually containing loot).

Crafting works by taking materials you've collected and assembling them, alongside an amount of energy based on the tier of the item, to make an item.

The eventual result is that you'll run into a point of playing where, per day, you'll need to essentially choose between playing the game or crafting an item. Past that, you'll eventually get to the point where you can't effectively get to the point in dungeons where you can find the materials you need to upgrade your gear that you'll already effectively take an entire day to craft due to the energy requirements of crafting. Not to mention, high-end equipment actually costs more energy than you can acquire via mist energy (since mist energy caps out at 100 stored), creating a literal example of a paywall to advancement.

[jooozek]

The game works on a timer system where you accumulate 100 units of "mist energy" over the course of 22 hours (so effectively, a full charge of your mist energy per day). Mist energy caps out at 100, crystal energy is a more permanent option and is accumulated through throwing real money at the game.

When you go into a dungeon, you pay 10 energy. Whenever you go to a new floor in a dungeon, you also pay 10 energy. This always comes out of your mist energy first (because it's the most volatile in nature, and you generate it passively).

Without paying, this means you can only go to a certain depth in a dungeon per day... Assuming you don't take any detours (there are special rooms you can unlock using energy that will sometimes come up, usually containing loot).

Crafting works by taking materials you've collected and assembling them, alongside an amount of energy based on the tier of the item, to make an item.

The eventual result is that you'll run into a point of playing where, per day, you'll need to essentially choose between playing the game or crafting an item. Past that, you'll eventually get to the point where you can't effectively get to the point in dungeons where you can find the materials you need to upgrade your gear that you'll already effectively take an entire day to craft due to the energy requirements of crafting. Not to mention, high-end equipment actually costs more energy than you can acquire via mist energy (since mist energy caps out at 100 stored), creating a literal example of a paywall to advancement.

oh, you played the game and never knew about the energy market?
it's not really well explained to players so i understand missing it out totally but it does exist
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Energy_Depot#Market

[Kent]

oh, you played the game and never knew about the energy market?
it's not really well explained to players so i understand missing it out totally but it does exist
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Energy_Depot#Market

A paywall doesn't stop being a paywall just because you can exploit the fact that other people will pay for things and then willingly sell them for in-game money.

If real money has to flow into a game under a free-to-play model in order for a given player to be able to feasibly advance past a certain point, there is therefore, there is a paywall on advancement. Ergo, Spiral Knights has a paywall.

Examples of games without paywalls of any sort include things like Dungeon Fighter Online (you could spend money to gamble on cosmetics, buy advancement boosters or healing items to compensate for a lack of player skill) and League of Legends (advancement shortcuts and character skins can be purchased with real money). Warframe is another example - though it doesn't actually have a paywall of any sort, in order to continue advancing past a certain point you have to be willing to either pay extra money for more inventory slots or willing to sell off gear that you've maxed out (and unlike other games, any individual weapon is balanced against other weapons available, with the intention being to not have any one weapon invalidate the existence of another weapon - though the balance is something they still need to work on). However, you never are actually required to have money flow into the game in order for you to advance, and therefore, there is no paywall.

After reading the changes being made to Spiral Knights regarding the energy system, I have my doubts about it actually alleviating the paywall issue; players no longer get their freebie 100 volatile mist energy per day, and instead have to rely solely on the energy market for their energy needs for crafting. This taken into consideration, I have to wonder if the system won't actually end up being worse for non-paying players, just because they're now going to be completely susceptible to the supply/demand of the energy market, rather than having a little bit of inherent flex room by design.

I'd also like to go ahead and get this out of the way: This isn't about being cheap, or not wanting to support the developers, or not being willing to pay for a game. It's about principle: If a free-to-play game requires monetary influx to experience what is effectively the breadth of the gameplay content in a reasonable and feasible manner, then the monetization scheme has therefore compromised the integrity of the game's design, flow and/or balance. This obviously isn't counting anything that's a purely-cosmetic or otherwise non-game-affecting purchase on part of a player (i.e. hats and skins for characters, and the like, presuming they don't confer any statistical bonuses or something moronic like that).

[jooozek]

you missed out on the part where after the update energy won't be used directly for crafting anymore, they are using now instead orbs of alchemy which will drop from monsters/boxes, of course, you will be able to buy those orbs with energy too but you will be able to craft without burning anyone's money if you choose to

(...)You will now find loot drops (“Orbs of Alchemy” and “Fire Crystals”) in the Clockworks that you can use to craft and upgrade your gear.
(...)Orbs of Alchemy for Crafting

Orbs of Alchemy can be found as loot drops as you play in the Clockworks, and will be used instead of energy for crafting. Orbs exist for each star level in the game (save for 0 star). As you play, you will find over time that you have more orbs than you need for the upgrade of your initial choice of weapons, and that you have the resources to build a broader arsenal of gear. This, in turn, will make it easier for Spiral Knights players to experiment with more varied equipment and gameplay styles. Orbs of Alchemy, in addition to being found in the Clockworks as loot, may be bought from the Supply Depot.(...)

[jooozek]

the game changing update is now live, feel free to try out the game - final patch notes are here:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/84873
edit: just playtested one full Tier 3 on hardest mode, got enough materials to upgrade one item from 4* to 5*, they are really generous with the droprates as long as you play on the hardest mode

[HIT0SHI]

I play Spyral Knights only for lil bit daily only sense there's these points that you NEED in order to revive yourself, open doors, and proceed to the next level which runs out faster that you can say "Phantasy Star Online 2: Episode 2".

[jooozek]

they've removed the need for those points you talk about which this whole thread was beating through, you can run dungeons infinitely since yesterday, revives now drop in item form (on average you should get 2-4 revives from a full tier run on Elite)
the point for crafting have been transformed into solid items also, you can buy those items for the points but there is no reason to honestly because they drop like candy; before the patch you'd need to use 800 of the points you talk about, now you only need 3 orb items of specific star rating, the highest upgrade orbs are called Eternal Orb of Alchemy, here is a random screenshot i found from just one run:

Spoiler!

what does this mean exactly? if we were talking about the old system, the guy here would have collected enough points to upgrade 2 items from 4* to 5* and have 266 spare points for another upgrade of this kind in just one, one hour long run