Originally Posted by
LonelyGaruga
Third paragraph, first line please. Read the rest if you can be bothered to.
If that's a problem, sub Fighter or Braver instead of Techer. Run Te/Fi for Elysion builds. This mainly only applies when you actually need to travel quickly, which isn't always the case. I've only found it warranted in TAs, where /Fi and /Br are better in the first place.
This isn't even factually correct, let alone as an argument. Every tech that gets a crafting recipe to reduce charge times also gets a charge time below 1s. That alone doesn't make them viable because the damage still isn't worth it. And how are you useless because you're slower at traveling? TD, most if not all EQs, AQs, XQs, all of those place far less emphasis on traveling than TAs, to a point it's inconsequential how fast you travel unless your MPA sucks for TD or you really want to gather as many crystals as possible for whatever reason.
You know what would be a lot more useful? If you could actually wipe out mobs you Zondeel with a single shot. I'm sure better geared Forces are outputting better damage than I am, but right now, I barely fall short of three-shotting Goldorahdas in SH with my Fo/Te using Nafoie off a Talis. And this is with a little over 2K T-ATK, though the multipliers backing it could be better (FM1 at 5, FM2 at 1) If I could three shot them, or even better, two shot, I could wipe out large groups of them with Zondeel > 2-3 Nafoies and be able to maintain that for an entire spawn group using PP Convert and be raring to go for the next wave once the cooldown ends. I wouldn't simply be support, struggling to actually do anything once I do Zondeel all those mobs together besides Gifoie flinch lock mantises. But I can't output that kind of damage. And that has nothing to do with my charge time, or my travel capabilities. That is solely a flaw in my damage. Fo/Fi and Fo/Br could do better damage, but then PP Convert is lost, and Nafoie burns through PP too rapidly to be used for this strategy without PP Convert. Maybe, if I had a fire tree, I could make this happen. But I don't. And I don't intend to spend AC for it.
Zondeel with Elysion, genius. Next you'll tell me Gunners use Reverse Tap to help prevent Goldorahdas from hitting towers. That's not how any Elysion user should play. To even think of that is indicative of simply not understanding what Elysion is used for. It's really ironic that, with how obsessed some people are over Elysion on this forum, raving about the uses of it, you somehow managed to miss that someone using Elysion is never going to get in range for Zondeel, never intends to, and never needs to. You call me ignorant in the first line of your post, then proceed to tell me an Elysion user wants to get in range to use Zondeel. Give me a break, that's ridiculous.
I don't have the firsthand experience to compare. That does not mean I don't have the knowledge or secondhand experience. The person I play with most plays both Gunner and Braver, along with Force. I play with Gunners and Bravers every day because they're everywhere. I see people tanking hits all the time. I tank hits all the time while leveling up Hunter on my Te/Hu. You know something? Not all classes have the same strengths. Why should Force or Techer get the ability to withstand attacks while charging? No class has that! You're getting flinched if you get hit whether you're a Braver preparing Shunka Shunran, a Gunner preparing Heel Stab, a Hunter preparing Ride Slasher, or a Fighter that wants more range on Deadly Archer. You get hit while charging, you lose it. That's how it works for all of them. So what if some attacks have super armor for those classes, and Force and Techer don't? They shouldn't get it! They aren't supposed to need it!
Where do you get off on wanting techs to get super armor? That tells me straight up that you don't know how to play Force or Techer if you actually feel the class needs it. You pull out some of the most potent PAs of the classes you name without ever mentioning that numerous other, not-so-good PAs also have these traits. Shunka Shunran is not good because it has super armor. Bloody Sarabande is not good because it has guard frames. Bloody Sarabande is hardly even worth mentioning because it's Fighter's best mobbing PA, which it really needs given how laughably bad at mobbing it would otherwise be.
I've heard only bad things about Force in the endgames of those two games, so this is moot. Not to mention they aren't even comparable with each other, let alone PSO2. They're all Phantasy Star games, but it's a lot like saying magic is broken in every FF game because it was broken in FFVI (of course, FFVI was broken in general, but that's not really the point).
None of which were an actual factor when Force was top tier. You called me out on experience, but you're rapidly making it appear that you genuinely have no idea what Force was like when it was top tier.
Well gee, I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to say when I read you're having trouble with randomly using Mirage Escape when you don't mean to. I'd suggest getting a repair or replacement for whatever you use to play, but then, you say it doesn't happen for classes that have Dive Roll/Step for their dodge action. You complain about what I said, but saying you just need to get more comfortable with the class is the most polite thing I could chalk this up to.
And let me make this perfectly clear: I am by no means suggesting Force is balanced, nor did I ever say it it was. I am by no means suggesting that Braver/Gunner are not broken, nor did I ever say they weren't. I am by no means suggesting that Force's advantages allow it to keep up with those two classes, nor did I ever say that they did. But, I will reiterate, those classes are broken. Why should Force be buffed to match them, and only Force, when they outclass more than just Force? Why talk like it's only Force that has a problem, when it's more than just Force that is underpowered compared to those classes?
I seriously don't get why I have to keep reiterating this. I run into this way too often. Too often do I see people putting words in other's mouths during disagreements. You could sum up half my post as "I didn't say X, I said Y". Please, read my post carefully, and instead of trying to justify your stance, look at the shortcomings of other classes. I brought up the charging PAs in the first post because they are PAs that are good despite the charging mechanics. Why? Because despite Heel Stab requiring a flip and a charge, its benefits are completely worth it. That is what Force's problem is. It isn't super armor, it isn't frailty, it isn't the trees being split into different elements. It's that, for these flaws, they are no longer worth the benefits. The benefits need to be buffed. Damage buffs, charge speed buffs, AoE buffs, plenty of options, but not pointless buffs like granting super armor during the attack. That is not what techs are for, and to ask for it is essentially admitting that you are a bad Force, because it's actually a problem for you.
In other words, I have every reason to believe that you are indeed a bad Force, because you are attributing its flaws to something that was never a problem in the past. Techs do not need super armor, they do not need guard frames, they do not need any of that melee stuff. Giving a tech super armor is by no means going to make them suddenly good again, which seems to be what you're suggesting by mentioning Bloody Sarabande. What a Force needs in its techs is better damage, better charge time, lower PP costs, better AoE, stuff like that. You have a problem with getting hit all the time? Use a Talis. You shouldn't even touch Rods in the first place outside of a few exceptions, and you shouldn't touch Wands at all if you're going Fo/Te, since you can't even equip Elysion without being better off as a Te/Fo or Te/Fi. Talis Tech Bonus has made Talis the best source of damage for casting, all else equal (save T-ATK).
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