Bouncer Class Discussion

[Naska]

I still keep a JB tree for fun but I think Bo needs a few more multipliers and some kind of PP management when casting techs.

I think SEGA is just gonna throw a pp cost reduction skill during Rapid Boost that cost 5SP. Since Bouncer is just not SEGA's favorite class here.

[Rayden]

It's either drop out after getting tired of your narrow-minded attitude or have a repeat of the stuff that's gone on in the Techer thread. There isn't anything to accomplish by arguing with you, so I'm going for the former.

I say the same thing back to you. You're being narrow-minded and contributing nothing. Unlike me, you didn't actually give any arguments or prove any points, so I don't know why you even came to this thread. You contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that only a small number of people actually have working knowledge of the game (which includes neither of us), so there's no reason to bother.

So, you admit that you don't actually have a working knowledge of the game, and yet you're blindly dismissing jet boots with no evidence and then calling other people narrow-minded.

I think this should be correct for paper DPS:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Thanks for contributing. I'm not sure where you got the values for the "Damage" column from - would you mind explaining that? But assuming you calculated that right, that just proves the point that I was saying all along, which is that (assuming you meet the player skill requirement) jet boots under RB have similar DPS to PBF, which is greater than regular dual blade PAs. You also didn't look at Normal+PBF for Bo/Hu, which is important in a fair evaluation because Immortal+PBF isn't always practical.

Let me point out that these results are similar to the calculations I posted earlier, in that jet boots with RB have similar numbers to dual blades with PBF. But when I posted those numbers, people just dismissed them and didn't explain what was wrong (probably because nothing was wrong). People also made statements such as "Jet boots can't out damage DBs on a boss even with pbf on cool down and break SD", "The difference in dps is too big for Jet boots to catch up", "When you actually calculate it out ragrants+ragrants+vinto is far, far lower dps than immortal dove+pbf", and "243,617 total damage per second with boots and 763,739 total damage per second from blades". These statements are all referring to raw DPS, and they have been shown to be untrue by both my numbers and your numbers.

Personally RB Jet Boots are higher DPS than DB downtime on paper and good for targets that just sit there waiting to be hit.

After throwing normal attacks in and accounting for random things like Double's core breaking just as Vinto comes out or PD flying off after Ragrants forcing you to rebuild Gear again, Train Ghidoran retracting its core just before Vinto hits etc, Jet Boots DPS just plummets.

On the other hand Dual Blades is like Destruct Wing, Dove, Kite and repeat Dove Kite. Very little setup involved.

So, you do agree at least that on stationary targets, they're higher DPS. Stationary targets aren't really that rare. Bosses like Magatsu are (relatively) stationary all the time (it stops for long periods, and moves very slowly with fixed platforms attached to its body). Profound Darkness is stationary for a lot of time. The same goes for several other bosses.

As for mobile bosses and breakable parts, that sounds like a player skill issue to me. What you're saying is a valid argument - of course, parts suddenly breaking when you're about to land Vinto can be a problem, but the solution to that is to simply not land a Vinto when the part is about to break. The player just needs to be more aware of the situation and have better prediction of the boss. You can make the same argument about missing attacks for dual blades, which also drags down their DPS, it's just that dual blades don't have heavy hitters like Vinto, so there's less of a penalty if you miss.

They're playable vs bosses but in the bigger hierarchy of 20ish weapons including pets, they're behind Partizan, Knuckles, Daggers, Rifle, TMGs, Compound Techs, DBs, Bow and Torim for sure. So they're mid tier at best.

Well, I was never comparing them to pets, partizans, knuckles, daggers, rifles, compound techs, bows, or torims. What I stated from the first place is that jet boots under RB have similar DBS to dual blades under PBF, and better DPS than dual blades when there is no PBF. Your numbers have shown that, and you at least agreed that it's the case on stationary bosses. I never said people shouldn't be using dual blades or PBF, I said that people should be using both weapons.

Again, I use both weapons all the time. I already have several maxed 13 stars of each weapon type, and I track my own damage every time I play and compare it to other people. Jet boots can and do work well. Dual blades are generally my initial go-to for bosses due to the ease of use that PBF has, but when PBF is on its downtime, jet boots with RB are a valid choice for boss killing and should be seriously considered rather than blindly dismissed.

The amount of effort used to defend JB where it factually sucks is amazing.

"factually" is a big word. You're going to have to prove that. Otherwise you're just being closed-minded and ignorant.

I really, really don't understand you people. Selphea's the only one that I've seen actually contribute something to a discussion. The rest are just hopping on the bandwagon and following what others say without giving it any thought. Stating that things are facts, dismissing arguments and calculations with no counter-arguments, being hostile and rude because you have nothing else to say - these are all just closed-minded acts and don't prove anything or support your argument. This attitude just really amazes me. There's no point talking to you people because you aren't actually interested in talking, you're just interested in blindly hating things that other people are telling you to hate.

I'm really just getting the impression here that you can't use jet boots properly. And that makes sense - I don't mean offense with that. If you've always used dual blades because you think jet boots suck, then that would naturally mean that you have a lot of practice and experience using dual blades in real situations, but that you don't have the same practice and experience with using jet boots. If you don't know how to use them properly, then you're going to be messing up your Vinto combos, missing attacks, and so on. That's a player skill issue.

[Saagonsa]

Here are the relevant numbers taken straight from the I'm not familiar enough with that damage calculator to be able to say for sure what's going on there, but the numbers look very strange to me. I noticed that on that link, Dove and PBF have the "Element/Tech Multiplier" set to 12 when the page says it's generally 1.2 to 1.3, but you have Ragrantsx2 and Vinto with it set to 1.2. 12 is a way higher multiplier than 1.2 and that seems like a typo to me. Change it to 1.2 and the dual blade bars shrink a lot. The Ragrants damage also looks oddly low for some reason.

Oh, yeah, you're right. Oops. The ragrants number was also low because I forgot to move the striking/ranged multiplier over to the elemental/tech multiplier. When you fix it the total damage per second comes out to 313,768 for blades and 266,684 for boots. Much less dramatic but it still comes out pretty clearly in DBs favor.

And that's not even mentioning how much PP the vinto combo eats up compared to the near-0 PP the dove+PBF combo uses which would tip things even more towards DBs favor.

By the way it was in fact stated what was wrong with taking the DPS numbers straight from swiki without anything to make them comparable. There's a bunch of different modifiers that get added to one weapon but not the other and vice versa, making it basically impossible to compare those without plugging them into a larger formula.

[Selphea]

Thanks for contributing. I'm not sure where you got the values for the "Damage" column from - would you mind explaining that?

It's in the 4rt link under "Calc reference", or here: http://4rt.info/psod/?vqsik

But assuming you calculated that right, that just proves the point that I was saying all along, which is that (assuming you meet the player skill requirement) jet boots under RB have similar DPS to PBF, which is greater than regular dual blade PAs. You also didn't look at Normal+PBF for Bo/Hu, which is important in a fair evaluation because Immortal+PBF isn't always practical.

JB's full combo has a deficit of -85 PP and can't just press Shift to instantly regain 24 though. If you throw in a couple of normals it starts to fall behind.

So, you do agree at least that on stationary targets, they're higher DPS. Stationary targets aren't really that rare. Bosses like Magatsu are (relatively) stationary all the time (it stops for long periods, and moves very slowly with fixed platforms attached to its body). Profound Darkness is stationary for a lot of time. The same goes for several other bosses.

As for mobile bosses and breakable parts, that sounds like a player skill issue to me. What you're saying is a valid argument - of course, parts suddenly breaking when you're about to land Vinto can be a problem, but the solution to that is to simply not land a Vinto when the part is about to break. The player just needs to be more aware of the situation and have better prediction of the boss. You can make the same argument about missing attacks for dual blades, which also drags down their DPS, it's just that dual blades don't have heavy hitters like Vinto, so there's less of a penalty if you miss.

Two problems about choosing not to land a Vinto in a given window. First, there's a chance you may not be able to land a Gear 3 Vinto at the start of the next window anyway. Either because you lose Gear waiting for the boss to sit still again, or because the boss decides to park in an inconvenient spot, and by the time you can get to a Vinto it's already flown away (see: Double). Second, if you didn't land a Vinto in the first window, it means your DPS for that window, even with RB, would be around 80k while the DBer puts out 90k to 140k because DBs don't need setup.

It's not so much a skill issue, but an issue with fight design nowadays favoring straightforward damage over setup-heavy damage - unless the party is organized, in which case Br/Gu is the king of setup-heavy. Fi/Hu in pub full break Maggy and PD tends to be better off using Knuckles and Daggers than Partisan because parts tend to break before Graptor goes off. Gu/Ra has trouble landing a decent Chain on Train Ghidoran because its vulnerability windows go by very fast. RATK Bow Br has more trouble than End Attract Ra too.

But Boots has it really bad because not only does it need more setup, even under ideal circumstances it's still behind idiot-proof Shift spamming. If the effort:reward ratio was closer to Banikaze vs Hatou, Jet Boots would actually be pretty attractive, but it's not. Admittedly getting perfect timing on TCPBF might be a bit more execution heavy than Vinto though.

[LonelyGaruga]

So, you admit that you don't actually have a working knowledge of the game, and yet you're blindly dismissing jet boots with no evidence and then calling other people narrow-minded.

By "working knowledge", I mean being a top-level player that knows the game extremely thoroughly. No offense, but since you aren't that kind of player, and other players that are (like Matt) have said DBs > JBs any day for bossing and stated why, I don't see any reason to argue with your opinion.

[Tunga]

And that's not even mentioning how much PP the vinto combo eats up compared to the near-0 PP the dove+PBF combo uses which would tip things even more towards DBs favor.

Even when pbf is on cooldown. You can combo 2 doves with a regular blade throw for the cost of 10pp. A bit less dps but it makes up for it with a superior longevity.

[DRAGONxNOGARD]

what do you think about bo/gu?

[gabor100]

Can someone help a noob out?

What does PBF do, which attacks fire PB's?

What are the two best AoE and Bossing PA'S?

Does the JB element matter if u have only one pair?

[Shadowstarkirby]

If one were to go Break Stance and they like to use DBs for both mobbing and bossing, would it be better to get a 106040'd Austere or a 105040'd Niren Orochi? If Austere, would Break Stance Austere outdamage Elemental Stance rainbow reds vs non-break mobs?

[Naska]

Can someone help a noob out?

What does PBF do, which attacks fire PB's?

What are the two best AoE and Bossing PA'S?

Does the JB element matter if u have only one pair?

to throw Photon Blade, use the Shift action of Dual Blades. Normally, with full 3 gear, you can throw 6 PBlades with 1 Shift, but during PBF, you throw 12 PBlades, thus double the amount of gear regeneration (usually, if all 12 Blade hit, all your 3 gear slots will fill up, which allow you to spam more).
For AoE, generally Dispersion Strike. For boss, switch between Heavenly Kite and Immortal Dove. Heavenly Kite is more gear efficient during non-PBF, can easily fill all 3 gear with only 1 usage, while Dove is better dps during PBF (do Shift => Dove => Shift => Dove => Repeat).
And JB element doesn't really matter, 1 pair is fine but no loss in having more JB since Shift dodge/Vinto will reset your element, so it's a pain dealing with off-element target if you have to Shift dodge a lot. The recommended element for every weapon is Light, so just do one max element Light JB.

If one were to go Break Stance and they like to use DBs for both mobbing and bossing, would it be better to get a 106040'd Austere or a 105040'd Niren Orochi? If Austere, would Break Stance Austere outdamage Elemental Stance rainbow reds vs non-break mobs?

And why would you need to waste a skill tree like that? If for mobbing, best just grab a JB and mob, a much wiser choice isn't it? Or something related to personal preference?