This games Shifta/deband is the worst i have seen.

[Terrence]

I'm happy that S/D is not that good if you don't take TEchter as your main Class (same goes for the future Reverser Field).
I'm TEchter/BOuncer and my great S/D (using MY BUILD) always gets warm thanks from other players. And it is pretty useful.

[Gama]

some people dont like being a support class. clearly.

honestly i like supporting , and that dosent stop me from doing good damage.

[Kondibon]

I think you guys are confused. People aren't just complaining about their effectiveness, but their general usability without techer skills. Techer adding extra utility and buffing them is fine, but they're almost unusable when you aren't main techer to the point that most people IGNORE them even when you ARE techer.

[Terrence]

(...) MOST people IGNORE them even when you ARE techer.

DUMB people IGNORE them even when you ARE TEchter. If they think +250 ATK, +10% DMG dealt, +20% CRIT, -25% DMG received and +25% HP (active forever if you're playing with a good TEchter) isn't valuable, we cannot do anything for those poor souls.
That being said, I understand what you're saying. Without the TEchter boosts, S/D has a really limited effectivness. But you can upgrade S/D with the crafting system and you can keep it on for your party almost forever for 0 PP if you're playing JB BOuncer. So...

[Dragon_Knight]

I have never seen someone stop for buffs in this game. In PSO and PSU if I was playing force that day everyone STOPPED and reminded me to buff if I let the stuff expire, but here I never even bother doing that on myself lest I fall behind. I haven't done actual number crunching as far as techer/nontecher S/D goes but it never seems worth very much maybe a couple hundred points here and there.

[Kondibon]

DUMB people IGNORE them even when you ARE TEchter. If they think +250 ATK, +10% DMG dealt, +20% CRIT, -25% DMG received and +25% HP (active forever if you're playing with a good TEchter) isn't valuable, we cannot do anything for those poor souls.
That being said, I understand what you're saying. Without the TEchter boosts, S/D has a really limited effectivness. But you can upgrade S/D with the crafting system and you can keep it on for your party almost forever for 0 PP if you're playing JB BOuncer. So...

Pretty sure JB bouncer is supposed to be a support thing too. It just bothers me that certain things and mechanics that can be used by multiple classes border on useless unless you're a specific class. I feel the same way about rifles on gunner for instance.

I have never seen someone stop for buffs in this game. In PSO and PSU if I was playing force that day everyone STOPPED and reminded me to buff if I let the stuff expire, but here I never even bother doing that on myself lest I fall behind. I haven't done actual number crunching as far as techer/nontecher S/D goes but it never seems worth very much maybe a couple hundred points here and there.

S/D with techer main are REALLY good. Deband toughness and Deband cut have saved my ass multiple times. Shifta strike is +10% damage to everyone! This is HUGE, especially if you combine it with Zanverse. The thing is, the way the game is designed, support techs aren't NEEDED, and thus people would rather not stop. Is is a really hard thing to balance without making it almost required.

[LonelyGaruga]

Even with Techer as a subclass, you can cast each of them S&D times and it will last 3 minutes. In a team of 4, that can last you for half a floor.

And you lose Shifta Strike, Deband Toughness, and Long Time Assist, which are what make Shifta/Deband useful as a Techer in the first place.

some people dont like being a support class. clearly.

honestly i like supporting , and that dosent stop me from doing good damage.

Support is a secondary function. Don't pretend it's a primary function.

DUMB people IGNORE them even when you ARE TEchter. If they think +250 ATK, +10% DMG dealt, +20% CRIT, -25% DMG received and +25% HP (active forever if you're playing with a good TEchter) isn't valuable, we cannot do anything for those poor souls.
That being said, I understand what you're saying. Without the TEchter boosts, S/D has a really limited effectivness. But you can upgrade S/D with the crafting system and you can keep it on for your party almost forever for 0 PP if you're playing JB BOuncer. So...

If a Techer maxed out all of the Shifta/Deband skills they're pretty much trash for doing so. That's 50 SP, and only 5-10 of it is actually useful. Getting Long Time Assist, Territory Burst, Wand Gear/Lovers/Reactor, and Super Treatment puts you at a total expense of 72 PP. Can't even max EWH doing that.

In practice, 22 SP at the very most into Shifta/Deband skills. Otherwise you're gimping yourself.

By the way, Deband Cut is only 15%, not 25%. And good luck supporting everyone in TD or most EQs in general. A single party, sure, that's easy if you're a Techer, 45s ticks are pretty easy to maintain. But an entire 11 other players, who are everywhere else? Good luck.

[Kondibon]

In practice, 22 SP at the very most into Shifta/Deband skills. Otherwise you're gimping yourself.

Pretty sure you can manage 30 and still have a functional build. And if you're a melee techer you have a free 10 points from not taking pp restorate. I mean, unless you're saying the extra bit of utility, survivability, and convenience isn't worth the slight loss of personal damage. But by that logic anyone subbing hunter is gimping them selves too because fighter has higher potential damage.

EDIT: Also, about TD thing, other forces and techers can refresh your buffs without writing over them, and even if they couldn't I would imagine an organized team doing TD could group up between waves and get back into position before the next wave starts.

[LonelyGaruga]

PP Restorate is still useful as a melee Techer. Melee Techers use techs and subclass weapons. It's better than 10 SP in Shifta Critical or 5 each in the Advance skills.

Though yeah, maxing Deband Cut is an option, you should never max out the Advance skills or put more than 1 point in Shifta Critical. It's a waste.

How many players run organized TDs, and of those, how many are made more efficient by getting every single player to gather around the Force and Techer players of the party instead of gathering crystals? Seems like a complete waste of time, and is completely unreliable with random runs, which the vast majority of players would be doing. Also, if a buff does wear off, you specifically need a Techer main to be able to reapply Shifta Strike and Deband Toughness. And any Force or Bouncer players in the MPA are going to have a hard time upkeeping buffs with their puny 15s ticks.

In other words, this strategy is only viable with 3-4 Techer mains. Which isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it doesn't seem very likely to happen, certainly not consistently.

[UnLucky]

DUMB people IGNORE them even when you ARE TEchter. If they think +250 ATK, +10% DMG dealt, +20% CRIT, -25% DMG received and +25% HP (active forever if you're playing with a good TEchter) isn't valuable, we cannot do anything for those poor souls.
That being said, I understand what you're saying. Without the TEchter boosts, S/D has a really limited effectivness. But you can upgrade S/D with the crafting system and you can keep it on for your party almost forever for 0 PP if you're playing JB BOuncer. So...

Oh, what's that? You mean you don't want +76% DMG dealt, -28% DMG received (-15% tech, same as Techer), and higher base ATK and HP for subbing Hunter instead?

Completely passively without wasting time or palette space.

some people dont like being a support class. clearly.

honestly i like supporting , and that dosent stop me from doing good damage.

I honestly would love to support, and it was one of the reasons why I started playing Force, but it's just not feasible or effective.