Force Discussion

[SiZ]

You lose 20-30% damage for any subclass if you don't use techs of the enemy weakness, so you should be matching enemy weakness anyway. But matching weakness for FI sub isn't always viable, due to lacking three masteries, hence a big weakness for FI sub on a FO main.

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Correctly, you gain 20% more damage for matching element weakness
So let’s do the rough calculation
Fo tree
Elemental conversion 1.3x + Element masteries 1.44x + tech charge JA 1.21x + tech JA advance 1.1x + some raw stat
Fi tree
Brave stance 1.5x + TAJA 1.15x + (pp slayer 200 t-atk) + (chase advance 1.15x) +
Te tree
Elemental weakness 1.2x + Element weak hit 1.2x
***you can see that if you don’t match the element weakness, you will lost 40% damage right? but this issue is not effect sub Fi.
and sub Fi already get more multiplier even without element weakness.

So in total, FoFi will get
1.3 + 1.44 + 1.21 + 1.1 + 1.5 + 1.15 = 2.7x multiplier
(exclude pp slayer, chase advance and elemental weakness)
Condition : always swap tech and stay at the front
FoTe will get
1.3 + 1.44 + 1.21 + 1.1 + 1.2 + 1.2 = 2.45x multiplier
Condition : Always matching element weakness

Yup not much in difference, but require different condition

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And the fact that you either have to stance dance with FI sub, or lose all of your primary multiplier when attacking from behind, making you do 2/3 of your damage with it.

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Yup.. 2.2 multiplier if stay on the back… but so far, the only mob that I have problem with is Elder

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Not to mention that FOTE has the highest compound tech damage in the game, which is a big deal with how powerful that can be.

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Yes, can’t denied that… but FoFi can use formelgion on every enemies
FoTe is strong because darker bosses are dominated. Barant with ice tree + light tree + element weak hit is unbeatable. I really wanna see FoTe’s performance on Yamato ship EQ xD

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Also, TE sub extends buffs to 3 minutes, not 2.

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Thx for correcting :3… I typed it wrong x_x

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And you forgot to mention TE's Super Treatment skill, which is borderline broken for being a 1-SP skill.

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That is conditional skill, so I didn’t mention. But yeah, if you can cure some status, you gain unlimited pp which I already put in FoTe’s Pros anyway

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It's like you're intentionally trying to downplay FOTE by making it seem worse than it is by omitting details.

All in all, FOFI is more like a poor man's FOTE, since you don't have to get as much gear for it, but in exchange, you're limited by play-style quite severely.

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You know, it is the best thing that I don’t need many weapon. One fire austere rod can kill anything as fast as FoTe can do.
Well, so far. The only boss that I can’t catch up Damage is PD with multiple Ilbarta user in MPA XD
Yes, it is not the best but if by any chance we are in the same MPA, you can use damage parser to check my damage and you might find how amazing FoFi is.

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EDIT: And you're seriously maxing both HP Up skills? At least max Wise Stance by sacrificing 36 HP.

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Yes! why not xD
The only place that desperately need wise stance is Dark falz elder. other than that I’ve never think of wise stance ..
While that 100 HP can always save Fo countless time. 500 hp and 600 hp is huge different you know..?
But it is up to your idea xD

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Well I don’t want drama and I already expected some feedback like this =w=b

You play what you think it is the best.
I just show something that is not main stream. xD

No, that skill is not the reason for rainbow weapons. The reason is because element conversion ( FO main) cuts your damage by 15% on 13* and 12.5% for 12* and below for not using an element that matches your weapon's element. FoFi will suffer the same as FoTe regardless.

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mhmm.. I think I typed it too short. Yes, the main reason for rainbow weapon is element conversion.
But FoFi need only 1 weapon so, It's not an issue.
while FoTe need at least 3 weapons to bring out the best DPS...
If using non-weakness element with different element to weapon, the lost is severe
( - 20% (element weakness) -20% (element weak hit) and - 15% ( different element for elemental conversion)
So, rainbow weapons are the must for FoTe

[Saagonsa]

Well I don’t want drama and I already expected some feedback like this =w=b

You play what you think it is the best.
I just show something that is not main stream. xD

Multipliers aren't added, they're multiplied together. Those numbers would have Fo/Fi at x4.3 (x3.74 without TAJA, which can greatly lower your DPS in many situations) and Fo/Te at x3.59. Another thing to mention is that Fo/Fi gets no boost to the techer elements, so even if you're running wise stance on Elder, your ragrants would be pitiful. That leaves you with no other option but lightning thanks to Elder's massive resists, which while not the worst thing in the world isn't nearly comparable to ragrants. A similar problem comes up in Magatsu thanks to his ice resists. Losing light, PP regeneration, and territory burst also hurts you fairly considerably in TD where ragrants into a zondeeled pile of darkers is very good and you don't get considerable breaks between enemy spawns except for the wave breaks. You're also losing a x1.44 multiplier on any compound tech you do, causing Fo/Fi to lose at fomel in TD and barantsion in boss EQs. There are reasons why Fo/Te is "mainstream" while Fo/Fi isn't for the majority of content in the game.

[Zorak000]

not to really nitpick here, but wouldn't the point of doing a brave/wise sub be because you are substituting the techer elemental masteries and elemental weak hit with the fighter stances? thinking about it that way, your ragrants on elder with wise stance would kinda come out a little stronger.

The problem here is that while wise stance is slightly stronger than a single element+ewh, staying behind a foe can be too big of a issue at the range you are typically working at. Brave stance kinda comes out stronger than an individual element boost, but the moment you are up against something that is weak against what you intend to use on them (*cough* light *cough*) it's instantly losing out (unless we are talking about using fire/ice/lightning, where you have your cake and eat it too).

Tech Arts JA is neat, but few techs combo together quite like Zondeel or Zanverse into literally any other tech; which with those two you are typically trying to cast that follow up tech a few times rather than alternating between them. From there the only other fighter skill you could realistically utilize is Chase Advance Plus, which doesn't really work on bosses, and doesnt work well for a few elements since the better tech craft recipies will often strip you of the majority of your status effect proc rates.

from here, I can start to cite that yes, the utility of having a techer sub tree for force on top of the damage from stuff like elemental masteries with elemental weak hit is simply night and day.

take it from me: someone who was using Fo/Fi for quite a long time; fo/te feels like I am fighting my pp bar less so I can focus on nuking the things in front of me.

the only thing here is if you aren't going to buy any AC and only got one skill tree per class; your Techer tree is going to either be a techer main or a force sub, and you just have to accept this.

[Tunga]

One fire austere rod can kill anything as fast as FoTe can do.

This makes no sense.

- 20% (element weakness)

Do you go into UQ lilipa with lightning for this to be an issue?

[Saagonsa]

not to really nitpick here, but wouldn't the point of doing a brave/wise sub be because you are substituting the techer elemental masteries and elemental weak hit with the fighter stances? thinking about it that way, your ragrants on elder with wise stance would kinda come out a little stronger..

Oh, huh, you're right. I completely blanked on that and assumed no wise stance. That said, you of course still run into the problem of barantsion being much stronger on Fo/Te than Fo/Fi even with wise stance.

[Catmsuica13]

Sorry if this is already been asked but what and how do i get compound techs. All i know is that they are a tech mixed with 2 elements. Im new to fo and have mostly been playing braver. Now that I have 2 mags im trying out fo and im guessing im gonna use fo/te ice and light build. Anyways i could use a little advice.

[Perfect Chaos]

There are two ways. The old way is through COs from Claris Claes once you have FO or TE at level 70+. But you can only accept her CO in episode 3 of the matterboard, so if it's on a character created after ep4 started, getting there will be a pain. The easier way to get it now would be from the Photon Shop, where you'll need to trade in a ton of Photon Spheres for each one. (I think it was like 50 for each.)

[Catmsuica13]

I'm on ep3 but force isn't 70 or even close. Photon spheres it is

[Tunga]

You can buy them from player shop too. (the spheres i mean)

[SiZ]

1. The problem here is that while wise stance is slightly stronger than a single element+ewh.

2. Tech Arts JA is neat, but few techs combo together quite like Zondeel or Zanverse into literally any other tech; which with those two you are typically trying to cast that follow up tech a few times rather than alternating between them

3. From there the only other fighter skill you could realistically utilize is Chase Advance Plus, which doesn't really work on bosses

4. from here, I can start to cite that yes, the utility of having a techer sub tree for force on top of the damage from stuff like elemental masteries with elemental weak hit is simply night and day.

1. yup, that's it. even without element masteries, Brave/Wise stance can boost the damage up on par with Element masteires + EWH already. But might be worsen compare to FoTe because lost of pp recover skill

2. TAJA is pretty annoying on some tech. but for fire, Swapping between Foie and Rafoie, Safoie and Gifoie is easy. So, dealing full damage on fire tech is easy. Blasting goldrhada's head for 80k with Rafoie is fun

3. Chase advance plus surprisingly work great on High hp mobs, esp those in UQ and some XH mob. they tend to inflict some status effect before death. But yes, useless on boss

4. Yes, the best of FoTe is unlimited pp, even though sub Fi boost more damage, but Sub Te compensate with more pp and utilities.

The real problem between 2 sub is compound tech. As I mention before, FoTe Barant on Darker boss is insanely strong. but do not underestimate FoFi Formelgion. it also does very nice damage (100k + per tick on PD).
I hope thing will change with phantoms are around xD

This makes no sense.
Do you go into UQ lilipa with lightning for this to be an issue?

I'm not sure I understand your point correctly.
What I said is FoTe need wind weapon to kill phantom, need ice weapon for ult nab, need fire weapon on ult lilipa, need light weapon on Darker.
while FoFi need only 1 weapon for every quests that i mention above and be able to kill things at the same speed or even faster (as I show in my vid)

But yes, i've never said that FoFi is better. they have their own good point.
Play the same as everyone does is kinda boring.