Force Discussion

[Aexorcet]

Hello ? where i saed 1% PPR is better 1% PPC ?

What you said could be read that way because you didn't explain. What makes 20% PPR better than 7% reduced PP cost? Every example so far is showing less PP used with PP cost reduction.

Btw 7PP/sec its 140% which equal lvl 10 TE PPR skill

Yeah, that's just default PPR for Fo/Te. Te PPR skill doesn't need to be taken into account because it's going to be 10/10 on any half good Te sub tree.

and well its exactly 6.3% okay i explain simple math S2 is -10% so the formula is 1 - (0.9*0.93)=0.163
So with S1 S2 PPC you get -16.3%, while with S2 only -10%.

S1 is 7%. That's why you multiplied 0.93 with 0.9. If the you're referring to one skill by its actually multiplier value of 20%, then you should do the same for the other right? I don't want to get into semantics, but using 6.3% isn't being consistent.

[LancerFate]

S1 is 7%. That's why you multiplied 0.93 with 0.9. If the you're referring to one skill by its actually multiplier value of 20%, then you should do the same for the other right? I don't want to get into semantics, but using 6.3% isn't being consistent.

Okay so it's 1.965-1.638=0.327, 32.7%PPR vs 6.3%PPC

[mr.chills]

Testing Fo against ice-weak bosses seems kind of... I dunno. I want to say 'rigged'.

not to worry lol, ilbarta and fo in general are still very annoying and clumsy to play against dragon, or imo ep5 content in general
its kinda to the point where im starting to question my choice of rushing to pick atra rod :/

ep5 seems to dial up on player pressuring which is exactly what fo's charge mechanic doesnt deal well with unless it can be parried front the front, but then again timing and releasing can often leave you vulnerable. a lot of the time you're forced to dodge in bq, ebq and dragon(im sure forest lq will be no different) instead of casting the tech you just charged so it punishes you for being overaggressive while at the same time rewarding other top tier dps classes for doing the same by countering or tanking. you can save the cast with fo skill sure, but its still annoying to not have a way to quickly punish/tank incoming aggro and have to go on the defensive a lot. it would be awesome if charge escape skill would cast the saved tech automatically during mirage for you

compound cooldowns still hurt a ton, waiting on baranstion to come back feels like an eternity in solo pd, making me wanna just go back to taking my weaker alt ranger there instead of using my shiny new 14* rod

these can just be my playstyle shortcomings though, im admittedly not that good at t-parrying, but even if my parry game was 100%, the question of why go force over other choices remains: its still a many-weapon, multi-tree, minimal utility/support, long range nuke class that had its longest range techs and its biggest bursts nerfed. and after all that there is still the issue of the element soup sega likes to serve us all the time. generous sp and atra/epd help in this regard sure, but when compared to classes that never have to deal with this by default and still produce top dps it becomes really difficult to justify maining fo

i guess what im trying to say is that even tho fo is not the most back of the bus class, its certainly the most demanding one for its overall low place in the roster

also lets not be fooled by the new rainbow mitigating s4's of rod and db, this is an issue that should have been addressed by a skill, wep mechanic or at least a ring a long time ago. atra partizan s4 is what rods and talises really deserve, not a hot fix for a busted 12-wep rainbow(+orbit) system that would still fall behind hero's 3 weps in the end anyways. im not saying rod s4 is bad, its amazing, but its an amazing band-aid, which could have otherwise been a damage or pp tempo boosting s4 if e.convert was just 50% across all elements to begin with

[Aexorcet]

not to worry lol, ilbarta and fo in general are still very annoying and clumsy to play against dragon, or imo ep5 content in general
its kinda to the point where im starting to question my choice of rushing to pick atra rod :/

ep5 seems to dial up on player pressuring which is exactly what fo's charge mechanic doesnt deal well with unless it can be parried front the front, but then again timing and releasing can often leave you vulnerable. a lot of the time you're forced to dodge in bq, ebq and dragon(im sure forest lq will be no different) instead of casting the tech you just charged so it punishes you for being overaggressive while at the same time rewarding other top tier dps classes for doing the same by countering or tanking. you can save the cast with fo skill sure, but its still annoying to not have a way to quickly punish/tank incoming aggro and have to go on the defensive a lot. it would be awesome if charge escape skill would cast the saved tech automatically during mirage for you

Outside of the Dragon, I don't think Fo has a really hard time. BQ isn't all that different from past quests. The issue with the dragon is more so its size and ability to jump across the map. You need to use a movement PA/tech to keep up, and Fo movement is only meh. I guess there is gunslash, but I don't want to be weapon swapping all the time between attacks.

The new charge JA skill really took away most of my concerns on having to dodge between techs. 30% damage lost because you had to sidestep an incoming attack was painful. Now you lose nothing, especially if you make use of rod keep.

compound cooldowns still hurt a ton, waiting on baranstion to come back feels like an eternity in solo pd, making me wanna just go back to taking my weaker alt ranger there instead of using my shiny new 14* rod

Solo PD had me worried due to the compound cooldown and Zanverse nerf, but I'm matching my old times, averaging around 10 minutes. I haven't updated my gear either, using the same units and weapons that I had when Solo PD was released. I just upgraded my weapons and leg to Union since they were Ray. I can't imagine trying to PD on Ra, Fo can effortlessly negate PD's attacks all day and turn bind into additional damage.

these can just be my playstyle shortcomings though, im admittedly not that good at t-parrying, but even if my parry game was 100%, the question of why go force over other choices remains: its still a many-weapon, multi-tree, minimal utility/support, long range nuke class that had its longest range techs and its biggest bursts nerfed. and after all that there is still the issue of the element soup sega likes to serve us all the time. generous sp and atra/epd help in this regard sure, but when compared to classes that never have to deal with this by default and still produce top dps it becomes really difficult to justify maining fo

Fo has gotten a lot less multitree. All Te elements are covered. Two of Three Fo elements isn't hard to get. Element Convert hurts when you're off weapon, but really it's ~13% reduced damage compared to 44% mastery damage. That 13% also drops to maybe 9-10% if your main weapon has a hefty affix on it.

also lets not be fooled by the new rainbow mitigating s4's of rod and db, this is an issue that should have been addressed by a skill, wep mechanic or at least a ring a long time ago. atra partizan s4 is what rods and talises really deserve, not a hot fix for a busted 12-wep rainbow(+orbit) system that would still fall behind hero's 3 weps in the end anyways. im not saying rod s4 is bad, its amazing, but its an amazing band-aid, which could have otherwise been a damage or pp tempo boosting s4 if e.convert was just 50% across all elements to begin with

When you factor in multiple compounds and having all elements in your tree, it's sounds like more than a bandaid. This upcoming buff has the potential to pull Force back up the DPS ladder. You'll be multiplying compound damage by ~2.5 in every EQ.

[mr.chills]

The new charge JA skill really took away most of my concerns on having to dodge between techs. 30% damage lost because you had to sidestep an incoming attack was painful. Now you lose nothing, especially if you make use of rod keep.

you lose the time you spend in mirage even if in short mirage and then having to go thru the casting animation. that could potentially make you lose ilbarta crest if you have to dodge repeatedly and overall dps. just about every other class has a faster way of dealing with this as in hero counter, step ja, tanking through massive and taking the hit or just avoiding it while moving and dealing damage like ra's paralel0. yes fo can "deal" with the pressure but its not efficient

Solo PD had me worried due to the compound cooldown and Zanverse nerf, but I'm matching my old times, averaging around 10 minutes. I haven't updated my gear either, using the same units and weapons that I had when Solo PD was released. I just upgraded my weapons and leg to Union since they were Ray. I can't imagine trying to PD on Ra, Fo can effortlessly negate PD's attacks all day and turn bind into additional damage.

my ra times are 7 mins flat and it has wep and units with crappy 75atk affixes. good ra times are about 5min mark. ra can effectively skip humanoid pd by saving a massive and end attracting the arms and skip persona by prepping sat cannon. bind is inconsequential since you either massive thru it, dodge it, automizer it or keep shooting. fo pre-nerf was great, but now it has to barasteon either humanoid after down or save it for persona either way dragging the fight on since cooldown nerf. ive managed to get about 9mins on fo, but pre-nerf fo had truly better times. once again the argument here is not that fo can't do something, but rather that if a different class can accomplish the same task with much lesser gear/affix it raises the question: of why fo over others?

Fo has gotten a lot less multitree. All Te elements are covered. Two of Three Fo elements isn't hard to get. Element Convert hurts when you're off weapon, but really it's ~13% reduced damage compared to 44% mastery damage. That 13% also drops to maybe 9-10% if your main weapon has a hefty affix on it.

mastery damage should not be used as logic to justify losing 13% to element convert. its a separate issue. mastery should just always be had and full element convert should always be strived for. my argument is that matching element and finessing around element convert is something that only fo and db bo still has to deal with in ep5. if someone is gonna ask me how fo is lately, i feel compelled to tell them that its still messy in comparison to other classes that are having an easier time in ep5. if you dont think that fo setbacks are a big deal, thats great, atra rod and buffs are certainly a step in the right direction, but still other classes are having an easier time in ep5, making it hard to recommend fo

also after fo/fi, fo/te fo elements feel like wet paper, having all te elements is nice but ideally a fo player would have the added task of levelling a fi sub as well adding to the pain of having a fo

When you factor in multiple compounds and having all elements in your tree, it's sounds like more than a bandaid. This upcoming buff has the potential to pull Force back up the DPS ladder. You'll be multiplying compound damage by ~2.5 in every EQ.

the fact that element convert is the way it is makes anything relating to equalizing its elements a band-aid or a fix. it is a buff, but its a buff to bad situation. its a buff to something that normally forces an unreasonable optimization task of having 12 different weapons and doesnt give full compound bonus from the get go. so s4's effect is a positive that balances a pre-existing negative(or at least harsh) one, zeroing it out. its like they made a bad chair with not enough legs and a nail sticking out of the seat so everyone had to carry around a pillow and an extra leg to use it, then they added the right amount of legs and got rid of the nail and people think that the chair is amazing now instead of just not being as bad as before.

also its worth noting that its not like all the other classes are just idly standing by. most are getting huge buffs directly added to really commonly used pa's. most fo dps techs were deliberately ignored yet are still bread and butter meaning that while other classes got buffs through regular power creep and pa buff, fo only got power creep and tech buff to more obscure stuff

overall tho, im a tryhard fo player thru and thru. ive always loved t-atk and only learned ra back in the day when wb was absolute king and needed in every pug. ive taken my fair share of fo issues on the chin and dealt with the nerfs in stride. but after a while its like come on if my alts can do it better/easier in most situations then im just fighting my own logic at this point. lets call a spade a spade. fo is more work then just about every other class for equal or less return. compound buffs are incoming yes, but thats not until late feb, meaning we get another 2 months of dragon and 1 month of forest before separate cooldowns and better travel techs. my bet is that fo is gonna be more annoying than most other classes in forest lq also. does atra rod made fo life a whole lot easier? yes. does it make it so easy that it rips through the game now with the same speed of hr, br and fi? no

[milranduil]

these can just be my playstyle shortcomings though, im admittedly not that good at t-parrying

fo pre-nerf was great, but now it has to barasteon either humanoid after down or save it for persona either way dragging the fight on since cooldown nerf. ive managed to get about 9mins on fo, but pre-nerf fo had truly better times. once again the argument here is not that fo can't do something, but rather that if a different class can accomplish the same task with much lesser gear/affix it raises the question: of why fo over others?

overall tho, im a tryhard fo player thru and thru. ive always loved t-atk and only learned ra back in the day when wb was absolute king and needed in every pug. ive taken my fair share of fo issues on the chin and dealt with the nerfs in stride. but after a while its like come on if my alts can do it better/easier in most situations then im just fighting my own logic at this point. lets call a spade a spade. fo is more work then just about every other class for equal or less return. compound buffs are incoming yes, but thats not until late feb, meaning we get another 2 months of dragon and 1 month of forest before separate cooldowns and better travel techs. my bet is that fo is gonna be more annoying than most other classes in forest lq also. does atra rod made fo life a whole lot easier? yes. does it make it so easy that it rips through the game now with the same speed of hr, br and fi? no

for someone who claims to be a tryhard fo player, you seem to be missing some of the basics of fo gameplay both in general and with respect to ep5. if it's taking you 9min now for solo pd, you are doing something very, very wrong. t-parry is generous with 0.6s and not to mention we have nabarta type0 which does not interfere with your rod keep techs after a mirage. it sounds to me as though you have not adapted to ep5 still in a variety of ways and are just complaining about it.

[mr.chills]

tryhard yes, someone who tries hard/too hard at something, i never said i was a great fo, i am highlighting the fact that a player like me can do solo pd better with my ra alt then my fo with atra rod. the fact that i suck at fo in solo pd doesnt make it less of a fact that it can be done easier with other classes given the same skill level/gear. also i dont think a fo with an equivalent gear as ra can get 4:41 solo pd post-nerf or hero of 4:01

even if your condescending points are taken and i am doing something very wrong and not as good as i should be, (even tho my shpeal was mostly about ease of use vs other classes), then you are saying that you can do better or same with less effort in dragon eq as a fo then you can with other classes you main and make videos for like br or hr?

[milranduil]

tryhard yes, someone who tries hard/too hard at something, i never said i was a great fo, i am highlighting the fact that a player like me can do solo pd better with my ra alt then my fo with atra rod. the fact that i suck at fo in solo pd doesnt make it less of a fact that it can be done easier with other classes given the same skill level/gear. also i dont think a fo with an equivalent gear as ra can get 4:41 solo pd post-nerf or hero of 4:01

?

Spoiler!

[GHNeko]

?

Spoiler!

but that's 4:48 fo which is worse than 4:41 ra

[mr.chills]

ok fair enough i walked into that one, fo/te has same or close enough, respectable solo pd times to other classes for top tier players

my second question was playing fo and other classes yourself tho, can you honestly recommend fo as a main class choice in ep5 over other classes considering the potential greater investment/hassle fo can represent, all other factors being equal? suppose things like ac for extra fo tree or meseta for extra weapons or skill resets or having to possibly level a fi sub mattered to a prospective player

i just want a constructive conversation about where force stands as a choice of main char on a majority of players' fun vs effort scales. for some people needing an extra tree or 6 more weapons of other kind after atra will change their overall mind. if you're busy irl and come home tired a lot maybe the fast twitch gameplay or meseta grind for extra weps isnt for you, making fi or fo less attractive. perhaps if rod escape and nabarta0 is what ep5 will be like for fo's then it would be a legitimate choice to not main it anymore if it doesnt float one's boat

would you pick atra rod main yourself and give up other weapons like sword or katana that could potentially need less swapping like rod would need with talis?

this whole thing started with the original question being:
-how strong are forces outside of compound techs?
-then about how ice on ice weak bosses wasn't a fair way of telling
-then about how even tho damage was good fo still felt clunky in dragon eq and my first post about how it gets pressured in ep5 stuff
-the bit about my t-parry sucking was meant to preface this main point: many-weapon, multi-tree, minimal utility/support(should have added for mpa support), long range nuke class that had its longest range techs and its biggest bursts nerfed. this is not true? i feel like this is an important point to make to someone wondering about fo regardless of my personal skill. even after atra rod, you would need 1-6 talises and an orbit wep, even with full te tree you would need at least 1 more fo tree for other/ice combo and possibly fi or br sub tree for ult. this is more than some other classes require so if power (or we can use solo pd ranks of top players) is about equal, why would someone go through the trouble of making more effort for fo than another class? and if a person has the itch to play fo for personal/roleplaying reasons then this wouldn't come up and they would just play fo anyways

-maybe the anti-s4 sentiments triggered people i can understand that, but since i always saw e.convert as a burden not a bonus, i have a chip on my shoulder about sega implementing it through an s4 slot, like when they made a ring for front s-roll, taking up a slot instead of just making it work like that normally as a skill change
-the short version and probably what i should have said instead was:
-how strong are forces outside of compounds?
-much stronger than before, close to, but not stronger than most other classes