Force Discussion

[Zephyrion]

-snip

That's a thing that has been there forever, even back when FO was at the very top tho. You just can't judge FO on a singular piece of content, like every class that isn't Hero. old classes have their own strengths and shortcomings that make them suited to some pieces of content. FO still shines in almost all of them (even if the gearing costs are stupid) which is only true for FI, BR and Hero currently, at least in my opinion. It's definitely a strong class but yeah the effort to access that strength is quite big

You can't justify a class pick just by accessibility. If you try a class and its kit is appealing you just play it. The good thing that came with EP5 is the very fact (and you've mentioned it) is that you actually can do 5 ele FO trees very easily and even if you don't get full element convert, one rod and one Talis is more than enough to enjoy the class and decide whether you feel like investing more in it or not.

I can agree that s4 is a bandaid, however it's still an issue that is fixed. And just that combined with compound buffs will shoot FO right back to its old (almost always top-tier) levels of strength, like it has been for many episodes. Meanwhile, BO and HU get to stay in their "good but other melee classes do it better" while Bow and GU forever remain incredibly content-dependent classes.. Just the solace of knowing your class issues are actually addressed is something in itself.

Incidentally I find FO, and particularly FO/FI incredibly strong on Dragon. Wise Stance TAJA Ilbarta is very much a thing, and Queen Viera still lets you gap-close and regen PP with ease, So it overall just works really well. Not as well as Hero but I think it's easily amongst the strongest classes here, from all those I've tried

[Aexorcet]

you lose the time you spend in mirage even if in short mirage and then having to go thru the casting animation. that could potentially make you lose ilbarta crest if you have to dodge repeatedly and overall dps. just about every other class has a faster way of dealing with this as in hero counter, step ja, tanking through massive and taking the hit or just avoiding it while moving and dealing damage like ra's paralel0. yes fo can "deal" with the pressure but its not efficient

The casting animation is only half a second. Recasting after a mirage doesn't take very long. It's definitely better than some PA's that take forever, or accidentally entering a PA on the ground as Gu or Fi and being stuck. Mirage cancel still works with short mirage, so if you absolutely wanted to minimize time lost to mirage, you can just cancel. Tech Parry is the easiest way to keep up damage if you know attack patterns, and unlike Massive Hunter it doesn't have a cooldown. Fo feels very comfortable to me, but I'm certainly biased as a Fo main.

my ra times are 7 mins flat and it has wep and units with crappy 75atk affixes. good ra times are about 5min mark. ra can effectively skip humanoid pd by saving a massive and end attracting the arms and skip persona by prepping sat cannon. bind is inconsequential since you either massive thru it, dodge it, automizer it or keep shooting. fo pre-nerf was great, but now it has to barasteon either humanoid after down or save it for persona either way dragging the fight on since cooldown nerf. ive managed to get about 9mins on fo, but pre-nerf fo had truly better times. once again the argument here is not that fo can't do something, but rather that if a different class can accomplish the same task with much lesser gear/affix it raises the question: of why fo over others?

I think this comes down more to the player. I can't imagine doing PD as Ra not because Ra is bad, but because I'm so much better at Fo. I have Ra on a couple of characters and the Ep 5 buffs are really evident. My level ~60 Ra felt sluggish in TACO pre Ep5, but now it's pretty effortless. I can launcher normal through most things if I feel lazy. What I have trouble doing is matching my Fo times, even as a 75 Ra. Like I said, I'm biased because I main Fo and have better affixed Fo gear, but if Fo is still my best class I can't see it as being in that bad a place.

mastery damage should not be used as logic to justify losing 13% to element convert. its a separate issue. mastery should just always be had and full element convert should always be strived for. my argument is that matching element and finessing around element convert is something that only fo and db bo still has to deal with in ep5. if someone is gonna ask me how fo is lately, i feel compelled to tell them that its still messy in comparison to other classes that are having an easier time in ep5. if you dont think that fo setbacks are a big deal, thats great, atra rod and buffs are certainly a step in the right direction, but still other classes are having an easier time in ep5, making it hard to recommend fo

The mastery damage doesn't justify EC, I'm just saying that it was a much bigger issue than EC was. The except of course was if you had multiple trees before. If you did then nothing changed with the recent buffs. If you were single tree, having access to all elements is a nice change.

also after fo/fi, fo/te fo elements feel like wet paper, having all te elements is nice but ideally a fo player would have the added task of levelling a fi sub as well adding to the pain of having a fo

Fo/Te is feels fine to me. If someone doesn't want to level Fi, they don't have to. If you want to min max then you should have that Fi sub ready, but the min/maxxer is a different player from your average player.

the fact that element convert is the way it is makes anything relating to equalizing its elements a band-aid or a fix. it is a buff, but its a buff to bad situation. its a buff to something that normally forces an unreasonable optimization task of having 12 different weapons and doesnt give full compound bonus from the get go. so s4's effect is a positive that balances a pre-existing negative(or at least harsh) one, zeroing it out. its like they made a bad chair with not enough legs and a nail sticking out of the seat so everyone had to carry around a pillow and an extra leg to use it, then they added the right amount of legs and got rid of the nail and people think that the chair is amazing now instead of just not being as bad as before.

I just didn't bother with EC. When I reach Fo cap I had 1 tree and only 2 elements between Fo and Te. I just focused on those two. I agree with you that EC doesn't add anything to the game. It was probably created to get people to play the game more and spend more money. It's not something that you actually need to bother with though, even now. It will keep you from being a top tier Fo, but it won't stop you from contributing to MPA's.

also its worth noting that its not like all the other classes are just idly standing by. most are getting huge buffs directly added to really commonly used pa's. most fo dps techs were deliberately ignored yet are still bread and butter meaning that while other classes got buffs through regular power creep and pa buff, fo only got power creep and tech buff to more obscure stuff

Fo isn't finished evolving either though. The coming compound change is significant, though I would have preferred lowered the cooldown so I don't need 3 times the subpalette space now. Going back to the original question on whether Force is worth playing, I guess it depends on the type of player you are. If you want to top DPS charts no. If you just want to be able to take on anything in the game and do well, then yes.

my second question was playing fo and other classes yourself tho, can you honestly recommend fo as a main class choice in ep5 over other classes considering the potential greater investment/hassle fo can represent, all other factors being equal? suppose things like ac for extra fo tree or meseta for extra weapons or skill resets or having to possibly level a fi sub mattered to a prospective player

What I said just above this quote applies here as well. Fo currently isn't for the people that want to out compete everyone else, but it's still very solid in just about every piece of content the game offers.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I can agree that s4 is a bandaid, however it's still an issue that is fixed. And just that combined with compound buffs will shoot FO right back to its old (almost always top-tier) levels of strength, like it has been for many episodes.

Truthfully, that is what I'm afraid of.
I'm afraid of separate compound cooldowns letting Fos entirely break things all over again.
So, I came here wondering if Fo damage wasn't sufficient after the skill tree changes, crafted tech changes, and atra rod S4 to warrant that change.

[Zephyrion]

Truthfully, that is what I'm afraid of.
I'm afraid of separate compound cooldowns letting Fos entirely break things all over again.
So, I came here wondering if Fo damage wasn't sufficient after the skill tree changes, crafted tech changes, and atra rod S4 to warrant that change.

Definitely won't be back to utterly broken era, more like FO will actually join the top classes and stand on an equal footing with them when optimized properly

[ArcaneTechs]

Truthfully, that is what I'm afraid of.
I'm afraid of separate compound cooldowns letting Fos entirely break things all over again.
So, I came here wondering if Fo damage wasn't sufficient after the skill tree changes, crafted tech changes, and atra rod S4 to warrant that change.

its been in the top 5 meta since the start of Ep5 if that helps

[Drakhin]

Hey guys I need some suggestions, right now I got a Val GS with S2 Photon Reduction so I was thinking of going Atra Rod with the following:

S1:2% dmg
S2: Photon Reduction
S3: Val Rod SSAF
S4: Atra Rod SSAF

and finish it up with Phrase Weak, Elegant Tech and Astral Soul.

What do you guys think? Is the S1: Photon Reduction or PP regen THAT much worth? What about the "normal" abilities?

[XrosBlader821]

I'd go all in if I were you and add a Tech 6 in the mix to have a nice 8s weapon

[Aexorcet]

Hey guys I need some suggestions, right now I got a Val GS with S2 Photon Reduction so I was thinking of going Atra Rod with the following:

S1:2% dmg
S2: Photon Reduction
S3: Val Rod SSAF
S4: Atra Rod SSAF

and finish it up with Phrase Weak, Elegant Tech and Astral Soul.

What do you guys think? Is the S1: Photon Reduction or PP regen THAT much worth? What about the "normal" abilities?

The PP abilities are pretty significant, but I don't think there is one best choice. You would be fine going with damage over the PP as long as you can keep your PP up with skills and attack regen.

As for the old abilities, I'd use them to focus on PP when affixing an Atra weapon. With base attack getting higher and higher the effect of traditional attack affixes becomes a little less. Astral/Elegant/Weak is a good set though.

[Drakhin]

Alright, thanks for the advice I'll keep it in mind

[Drakhin]

Another question came to mind: How much HP/PP are you running with? I currently have 800/180 and feel like it's lacking HP wise, what do you guys run?