Are we grinding for the sake of faster grinding?

[nguuuquaaa]

Ugh, I haven't quit yet, but I'm thinking of doing so. At this point there's nothing to do except self-challenge.

Maybe I should be back to Cosmic League. It's heavily pay2win, but at least it's not do-nothing-still-win like current PSO2.

[Keilyn]

I am currently playing Black Desert Online, which in the US/EU is actually B2P ($30) as well as some WvW fun in GW2. Black Desert Online is actually a Sandbox game, not a gear grinding game unless you truly want to be a top player in PvP.

I am still learning the game.

However, what takes longer to grind/find in a game by your own opinion in today's standards?

A single top tier weapon in an MMO grinded/enchanted to max?

or

A rainbow set of 13* weapons at 10360?

Amazingly enough I was given two Seven-Day Access Guest Passes when I bought BDO. So im happy. ^_^

[Macman]

This.

@Macman: That's basically a huge "fuck you" to anyone with a job, or anyone who doesn't pay money to multi-ship, which is basically sanctioned meta-gaming / cheating.

Yeah, that's fair. My team leader has problems maxing his austere talis because all the PDs now happen whenever he's sleeping.

There's still a pretty large gap to fill between Austere and the next best stuff (usually 2nd best is still invade going by raw stats) so it might still be a good while before it gets surpassed.

[Shinmarizu]

However, what takes longer to grind/find in a game by your own opinion in today's standards?

A single top tier weapon in an MMO grinded/enchanted to max?

or

A rainbow set of 13* weapons at 10360?

The answer to that will vary from game to game, but regardless it is in the game's design to encourage you to chase that ideal, and wall it off with as many time-gated and probability-gated systems as possible.

[Tenlade]

this game would be perfectly fine and have plenty of content if

a: we werent at the same level cap for over a year
b: all the good quests werent limited to a half hour at specific times
c: weren't balanced around needing 12 people.

If players could do free tokyo/ult lilipa /naberious solo and still make decent progress to getting the 13*s from them, it would be a whole other story. As it stands it takes forever solo and if you can solo anga yourself, you certainly don't need those ult 13*s anyway.

[Gama]

i honestly upgrade my gear into decent gear, and when my decent gear gets outdated i get the current decent gear.

i honestly do not have time for it. so i just enjoy the game, chat with people, have a few lols, meet new people, dress up allot, play some more.

i honestly play this game after a work day and my brain is pretty mushy from tirednessness.

i play like 2 hours a day max, and pso2 allows me to only play that much and still have somewhat decent gear.

i'm not a hardcore super player, but i know what i'm doing most of the time.

grinding the same thing for hours kills me, ill just do ramdom stuff.

edit----------

see how tired i am, how many times i said honestly there, christ.

[cheapgunner]

If players could do free tokyo/ult lilipa /naberious solo and still make decent progress to getting the 13*s from them, it would be a whole other story. As it stands it takes forever solo and if you can solo anga yourself, you certainly don't need those ult 13*s anyway.

This is a big thing for me. Finding an UQ group isn't hard but fnding one on that's gonna do those runs consistently is. I want to really farm UQs for drops but it's dumb to try and get a group together when most ppl are just meseta farming and/or sitting around waiting for the next EQ to pop up. Not to mention the rewards for doing those kind of runs aren't high enough.

UQ stones need to be boss drops also, and 2 instead of 1 when you clear. Element grinding also needs to be less tedious. Almost want to just stick with 12*s seing how near impossible it seems for me to get another dark element gal rod and austere rod to max element the ones I have...

The carrot sticks for 13* weps has gotten to the point that I usually mill about on youtube and other games 'cuz putting in months trying to get some of these 13* weps like a fully maxxed element nemsis rod/tails means soloig most of the time and that's kinda unlikely for me to do atm.

Then there's the fact that in 2-3+ months, a new 13* rod will come out and have on par stats with the ones we have and possibly better access too.. ._.

[Selphea]

It's a 100% instanced PvE action game, there's nothing to do but grind hard enough to make a rapper blush!

Rings are just silly though. I can't see myself mining tomatoes past +11.

[Shinmarizu]

This game is doable with good 11* and 12* weapons, and thanks to the crafting system, Red weapons along with 9* unit sets. Sega has all these 13* weapons everywhere to give you something to chase - they may or may not be hard to obtain; but they are time-consuming.

That's the point: Sega wants people actively on their servers. The fact that we all are chasing the top tier gear means Sega's system is working.

Embrace the grind.

[Keilyn]

This game is the way it is because its F2P. The game was built around the idea of getting people to spend money on its cash shop, otherwise there would be no funding for the game as no company would keep a game on for years enduring losses each quarter.

Here is what I would do if I had control of this game (and make the entire world PISSED OFF at me)... ^_^ (so pray that I don't control the game).


1) I would make the game B2P and I would change the following things:

~Eliminate all Room and Player Shop cards (all players would have access to both)
~Eliminate Premium Set altogether since its B2P
~Eliminate all Unit and Weapon Exchange Cards
~Eliminate All Stones (more on this later)

2) Attributes

~Eliminate S-ATK, R-ATK, T-ATK, Bring back ATP
~Eliminate S-DFP, R-DFP, T-DFP, Bring back DFP
~Bring back MST (mental strength)
~Dexterity Function will be the Function it had in PSO1
~PP would be gained on Level up, Recovery Rate would be in Armor/Weapons/Skills.
~Bring back Evasion

3) Combat
~Bring Back Normal Attack, Heavy Attack, and Special Attack
~Bring Back Combo Attacks
~No more subclasses, Level Cap Max would be 100
~Many more attacks involving positioning and movement instead of mashing a PA button to do the work for you because lets face it... PSO2 is an endless stream of PAs
~Evasion Combos, Defensive Combos, Offensive Combos.

I always wanted a dancer-like support class that could just do a bunch of attacks and the after effect of each combo would be either a buff, a debuff, or a minor area heal, As well as helping members out...

Would be so nice if something like
Guard(Block Attack while a player is next to you) + Evasion + Direction + Skill Tree support Skill = Grab Player next to you and Mirage Escape in the direction pushed.. existed

4) Skill Trees

Three Skill Trees will exist.

General: In this tree we put our stances and skills that can benefit all classes. Instead of having + attributes, starting players will have a uniform attribute gain for each level. For each point put into an attribute, a player will get that much per level up. Abilities that benefits classes on general levels would go here too...including all stances...

Lets say the start attributes were

HP +3
PP +1
ATP+5
Dex+5
DFP+3
MST+3
Eva+ 3
etc

Increasing stats in the General Tree along with Racial Tree will add these as attribute accumulation at level up. Lets say I had Five points in ATP, the it would mean that each level up I would gain +10 ATP as an example.

Profession Tree: These are the trees that have us delve deep into the three major Phantasy Star profession categories, which are Hunter, Ranger, and Force. We would have one pool of points that go into all three. If we want to truly delve deep into one class to be super powerful but limited in its forms, we would go into one tree, but if we want flexibility and versatility, we would put points into the other two areas to make us more unique.

Racial Tree: This would be a small tree where we could pick three to four racial traits out of about 10 or 20 to match our playstyle.

5) Tokens (Trade in Currencies)

~Eliminate all Tech Frags, Range Frags, Strike Frags, and replace them all with one item, PA Frags
~PA frags are earned by completing mission and as drops against bosses, and boosted enemies. They are uncommon to rare and are used on customizing PAs and part of a weapon ingredient in Grinding/Crafting
~All Stones are Gone.
~Weapon Trade-ins are now handled through using three items, Excubes for trading in, along with Crystals which are used to pick the Weapon Element we want as well as how high the weapon element would go to, as well as a third item, be it a prerequisite weapon or area drop which is transformed into the weapon.
~Eliminate Lambda Grinders, Grinders would be Universal, and to increase their value the drop would be uncommon, but the amount of grinders needed to grind a weapon would be less.

6) Weapons

~All Weapons are equipped based on attribute restrictions/class restrictions.
~Weapons can be grinded to +10, but one uses grinders and materials. No failure rate exists, however materials are gathered from desynthing weapons and finding them on the field.
~Grinding Weapons will only increase max stats by +50%.
~Maximum Elemental Power will be 25%
~Grinding Weapons unlock Potential Level and Slot Count
~At +7 a special ability (for special attack) will be unlocked and it gains its max power at +10
~Once a weapon is at +10, the weapon WILL STAY at +10 upon choosing potentials. The player will have to choose up to Five Levels through Crystals, PA Frags, and perhaps Photon Spheres, up to four potentials. Two can be attack potentials increasing damage, One can be a defensive potential, and one can be a recovery potential if need be. The system won't allow four attack or four defensive potentials to stacks.
~Crafting will be used to Expand or Extend. Expansion deals with Affixing (which would be handled differently as the Affixes would change), Extend would change the parameters of the weapon such as sacrificing one thing in exchange for something else...which that is extension is all about in the real world.

Example

Lets say I wanted a Psychodrive (I am using this example because I loved this weapon in PSU).

I grind the weapon to +10 using materials from Desynthed weapons and running the maps and events...but without having to grind so much like what happens...

The weapon at +10 has a hidden power (im making it up) that weapon power increases as long as I charge techs in short range to enemies (like Gi Techs), so now the weapon has a characteristic that its more for short range. I then can choose up to five levels of potentials from any the class can use...so I decide that I really want to slay DragonKin and their bosses as it would be a Dark Element Weapon, and so I get three levels of Dragonkin, 1 Level of Boss Slaying Potential, and Finally 1 level of a potential to help me recover PP while I am Charging a Tech.

I decide to expand the weapon to affix it with stuff to increase raw damage and help with recovery (as affixes would be different too), maybe even an Affix to make it less likely to be interrupted during a charging of a tech.

I would Extend the weapon and say "I don't mind sacrificing a stage of power in order to give me better charge times." or I might say "I am that good, so I don't mind extra power in favor of attacks costing more PP"

There, I have a good weapon that is more unique to what I want to do...

7) Armors

Once again we would have the PSO1 scheme of Frames, Barriers, and Armors to show the type of damage that they protect against and resistances would be more important. The armors would be more level based on equipment, but crafting them would change parameters for those who want something earlier.

Lobbies and Block System

~The Block System will go Bye Bye.
~There will be a Channel System for each server.
~When EQs are launched the system will group anyone in any channel that is on the same Lobby regardless of Channel.

Example, if I am in Channel 2 because Channel 1 is full, and I launch an EQ, since it is instanced, I can be grouped with the same party in the EQ.

~Each World will have its own Lobbies and access to its own map. This is similar to PSU EXCEPT that there arent 1000000x Lobbies on each planet to confuse everyone. Its just one Central Lobby per planet along with its missions as well as the Arks Ship.

9) Party System
~max of 4 players per party
~A party leader can become the MPA leader and show micro-HUD bars for each party member outside the party, and help recruit party members for MPAs. Example...

I make a party of three and want to start an MPA. I select Party size and choose MPA and I see micro-bars of empty slots for the other two parties. I can recruit for three parties. The first person recruited to an empty party becomes party leader.

~In EQ MPAs, the system will group everyone into parties automatically. This will ensure that 12 people in an MPA will always be in a party of four.
~Players can select whether they want this grouping or not OUTSIDE of the EQ in non-event maps.
~Player has the option to turn on Blue, Red, Gold, and Green Flash. If a friendly player flashes that color

~Red - Low health
~Green - Low PP
~Blue - Charging Attack
~Gold - Charging Photon Blast

(This is to help support players and party members see what each player is doing. If for example I am standing still and players have the BLUE Flash on, they will see that the reason I am not moving is because I am charging an attack against a boss signaling that I need protection. Same with Gold, If Flashing Gold, it means that everyone should be beginning to charge Photon Blasts at the same time for their bonuses...) Red is obvious for support characters, while green is obvious for when the rest of the party needs to know that you might go through some downtime or be vulnerable.

10) Team System
~Max Team Size would be 50
~Teams will have stages and Team-Based Missions which progressively get harder as part of a team story to get through.
~Last Login Date will exist
~Player-Made ranks outside of Team Leader and Manager can be made by players.
~Team-Prunning can exist like (if player with rank X does not log in 20 days= kicked)

11) Mags and PBs

I would have players level their mags and evolve their mags. However, I would make the Photon Blasts level in stages to improve their power and add a little bit more tailoring. The four basic triggers would exist as well of "Low Health, At Boss, PB Full, and Mission Start" aside from standard battle operation.

I would bring back the PSO-1 ability of launching PBs in certain order to stack and amplify power.

12) Drop Rates

~No more Rare Drop Boosters of any kind. Instead I rather raise the drop rate of just about everything rare by a bit and spread the drops out more evenly among the game while rotating Rares in and out depending on seasonal events.

~Posted Drop Rates (I rather know that my chances are to see a drop)


13) Gameflow

A race is selected that tells the player of attribute changes. A player chooses a "mode" in the race that they pick that suits their playstyle. They create their character and go. They get five skill points to start for each tree and they put them into both trees. Quests unlock the Racial Skills. So for me, I decide to play Newman and I want a more Hunewearl, so I put a skill point in what is called "Limit 1" which allows me to raise my techs up to level 5, along with Force-Initiate, which allows me to Equip a Rod, a Talis, and a Wand. I also put a point in Hunter-Initiate to allow me to equip a Sword, Wired Lance, and a knuckle. I would put some points on ATP, MST, EVP (to feel more like a HUnewearl) which changes the way t he newman grows...

The character will have access to all PAs in their game (to avoid dealing with picking up disk after disk), but some will be unlocked by quests (mega techs and PAs), the maximum level would be 10, however, later on specialization would allow PAs to reach level 12 (a true overlimit break which occurs in some games)

Players would run and get drop items that are more legitimate, less garbage and would actually have to play together.

Cosmetics/Clothing
-----------------------------
~I like what is done now, but I would like also being able to dress from top to bottom. The problem is not the system, but the expense at getting items. If the game is B2P, I would actually make a separate window that allows players to choose any of the costumes and styles and work with their characters that they have unlocked to save space. Players would have more options to unlock costumes through seasonal quests and special quests, etc... and even have some be clear rewards, as well as costume exchange vendor.

Cash Shop
-------------------------------
~Items in here would be cosmetic, but the player will be allowed to choose the item. They would cost more but the choice is up to the player. Cost would vary on item.


Finally, why even write something like this?

PSO2 is supposed to be more of a dungeon-crawler game, but it isnt really. We kill things in 1 - 2 hits, we smash bosses to pieces and we can skip everything and head to the exit. We will just get low clear rank if we do that. Real Dungeon Crawlers have dungeons that we have to solve puzzles, avoid traps and actually get to the lowest or highest level and smash the bosses. The Legend of Zelda in the Temples has more Dungeon Crawler Elements.....

I remember running through hallways that had mines on them in PSO1 by moving through them while in the menu screen to not take any damage. PSO2 has traps in the machine areas but not much anywhere else....

PSO1 was great because it started as B2P and became P2P. The game just got better with time and then it aged and died.
PSO2 added dynamic events, and jumping, but the game started as an F2P which made the model of how can the game be set up to get players to spend their money on it. PSO1 was the first ACtion based RPG to ever hit a console and so SEGA wanted to make a simple but GOOD game and it was a high-hit game that people just loved..

Grinding
---------------
If there is going to be a grind, the grind should not be WAITING FOR EQs, and that alone is what keeps me away from this game. Nor should a grind be that on PREMIUM one finds all good blocks FULL (including reserved premium space) forcing me to grind in the block select screen to get into a good block during an EQ. A grind should not be that I have to park my ass an hour before an EQ in a block....

If I am going to grind something, I should have ACCESS to what I am going to grind and when I am going to grind it.....

That is the DIFFERENCE between PSO2 and other games...
I HAVE ACCESS in virtually every other game on WHEN I can grind and WHAT I will grind...

PSO2 is "You need to GRIND EQs" which means we have to WAIT FOR THEM and POSITION ourselves for it, and we SPEND MORE TIME DOING THAT than actually RUNNING THE EQ ITSELF and excubing all we get afterwards.....

Like I said in a previous thread where some people thought I was attacking the people here... "You all deserve much more than being a Premium Subscriber being forced to wait an hour to get into capped blocks to run an EQ in a Japanese video game in which most of us have to proxy to get into, only after waiting till 4AM to actually get into a GOOD EQ"

^_^

Another one of my super long posts..... but hey, its what I am known for and I wont change. ^_^