PSO2 vs PSO

[Altiea]

So... Favorite fruit?

[otakun]

You like Facts?
SEGA does not call PSO-2 an MMORPG.
Completely voiding your argument....

PSO-2 is a unique game, with a unique population...because we are importers to the game. We deal with morality, ethics, and even legal issues in a gray area to even play this game...Setting us apart from many other populations..

Comparing a Unique Population (PSO2) that plays a Unique Game (PSO2) to a General Population (MMORPG)....

Makes no sense, as even in 2001... PSO-1 was not an MMORPG either. Neither was PSU... Now you think by some magical sense that PSO-2 is an MMORPG when SEGA declared it was not, or could it be that you are biased in believing that in order for an RPG to be good it must be classified as an MMORPG in order to make you feel good and secure?

You accuse me of being biased..
Guess what!
All human beings have biases in them.. so yes.. I am biased. Are you trying to act like you are not? In that being said, I guess if you are going to act shocked that I have a bias, it seems you do not understand the rules to argument or persuasive writing. It makes me wonder if you have ever published any article under your name that has survived peer review...

Nice rehashing and more pointless topics you bring up which if you want to get into critiquing debate styles shows you can't even keep it a point without adding in topics which don't concern the topic.

As I stated before, it doesn't matter what a developer calls it as since genre for the main point is aimed towards marketing to the customer. A perfect example of this is Super Smash Bros. The lead designer outwardly states that Super Smash Bros. is not a fighting game. It's hardly a traditional fighting game yet is obviously based on fighting gameplay and thus why SSB is in EVO.

We aren't talking about PSO1 as far as this conversation is concerned, donno why you brought it up. The fact that we are foreigners also doesn't concern the topic at hand unless you are trying to argue how it might be categorized differently in Japan then in th US but you didn't bring that up.

This might come to a big shock for you ... PSO2's gameplay style isn't unique! PSO2 is hardly the first lobby hub based instance MMO and isn't even close. As an MMORPGer that you claim to be, you should have known that.

"could it be that you are biased in believing that in order for an RPG to be good it must be classified as an MMORPG in order to make you feel good and secure?" - How is that any different then what you're doing? The fact that I call you biased is based on the fact that you're wrapped in the old idea of what an MMORPG is. You can consider it biased, for some reason, that believing other styles of gameplay can fit the same category by why? What benefit would I having a bias about it what it is? You clearly already expressed why you would biased for it not being an MMORPG cause you have memories of what you consider to be an MMORPG and you don't want those memories tarnished by a more casual style of gameplay. You try to turn this argument of bias against me where I have nothing to gain and nothing to defend on the issue while you do. So, yeah, feel free to question my peer review once you've had yours done on similar topics.

and just for a heads up, I have written college papers on MMORPGs since you feel the need to question me personally about it based on a simple forum discussion.

[Shinnomura]

So... Favorite fruit?

ぼくはいちごがすきだ

I like strawberries. Don't think I really have a favorite though.

[Altiea]

ぼくはいちごがすきだ

I like strawberries. Don't think I really have a favorite though.

I like bananas. But it was more of a wry comment about the topic derailing again.

[Shinnomura]

So genre doesn't matter but the argument here is about genre? Saying the actual genre of a game is irrelevant and it's true genre is based on what people decide it is would mean every game with multiplayer could be an mmo if the players called it such correct? If that's true then genre truly is irrelevant as it means nothing, it's not even a way to determine game elements or play style at that point. If we go with that then PSO2 could be called anything, it could be a puzzle game or a RTS just because the players choose to call it such.

[Shinnomura]

I like bananas. But it was more of a wry comment about the topic derailing again.

I know, but through my sly remark i was able to learn you like bananas. Victory is mine. lol

[otakun]

So genre doesn't matter but the argument here is about genre? Saying the actual genre of a game is irrelevant and it's true genre is based on what people decide it is would mean every game with multiplayer could be an mmo if the players called it such correct? If that's true then genre truly is irrelevant as it means nothing, it's not even a way to determine game elements or play style at that point. If we go with that then PSO2 could be called anything, it could be a puzzle game or a RTS just because the players choose to call it such.

You jumped to a lot of different points here.

No one said genre didn't matter but just because a developer says what it is doesn't mean they are correct, as stated before. Just because someone made something and named it a certain way doesn't mean its the correct name for it. When there are other games in the market that are played almost exactly like PSO2, which there are, that are called MMORPGs, then how does PSO2 not be categorized the same?

If you want another real world example of this then look up MOBA. Guy makes a mod to an RTS game and called it something doesn't change the fact that a MOBA is still an RTS game. PSO2 is the same in that it is an MMO but Lobby instance based MMO instead of Open World MMO which is what people like to stick it only to.

Not really in the mood to explain in greater detail how an instance based MMO makes sense but most of the people who argue against it are more hung up on the idea that "this game isnt like such and such and thus is not it". Well, that's what happens when it comes to gaming, things change and evolve. Believe me, I played online games before they even had graphics. =P

[Achelousaurus]

PSO and PSO2 are apples and oranges. Original PSO was more of a Diablo-esque experience. PSO2 and by extension PSU (since they're based on the same engine and all) are closer to an MMO, but in the Vindictus/Mabinogi Heroes way rather than the WoW way.

Apples and oranges, true. Both are delicious, incredibly popular fruits that are sweet and eaten all over the world. I take it that was the point you were not making and not the nonsensical idea that you cannot compare these or cannot compare PSO2 with its predecessor?

Ultimately, farming GGG for Saiki doesn't feel too different from farming Forest of Sorrow for God/Battle though. Same with Austere grind vs Excalibur.

Well, I found 4 saiki units from regular Gunne's without hunting. I needed over 6 months of intense Hildetorr piping to get my God/Battle. The drop rates are very different.

PSO1 was only hard early on if you had no higher lvl character or gifts from others.
Early on it was really tough cause a lot of classes were very weak at low lvls even if they got strong in endgame.
Hence You wanna be Hucast or Hucaseal but virtually nothing else in cmode. (except the occasional Fonewearl).

A lvl 20 starting hard with good equipment for normal ruins would do alright in H forest.
The only true jump in difficulty is lvl 80 ult Forest. Even if you ruled VH you would get your ass kicked hard unless you had hand me downs or traded for for strong ult gear already. And even then all armors had lvl requirements so no matter what your def would be low. Just, with MB and all ontop of incredibly fast lvling thanks to Koffie, you barely spend any time at low lvls now and your MB units make you near unkillable until VH.

PSO1 was harder, but really only early on. And that was mainly poor game design cause of lacking ATA to hit anything, forces being oneshotted easily and having too low TP to be able to use techs enough for decent dmg.
Once you got past being a lvl 80 with your VH ruins / Seabed gear in ult forest it got easier, too. And endgame was almost the same kind spawnkilling speedrun stuff as we got now (I never did TAing but I tagged along with Z-0 a couple of times, though he doesn't remember).

One thing PSO truly is however, is being a lot clunkier, more cumbersome and slow as fuck.
BS like arbitrarily endless animations like wasting time after your mechgun combo or most of the time the 3rd hit of a combo being too slow to be useful, etc.
That's the main reason I can never go back.

What PSO really had, though, that was far better is long 4 player quests. That was a lot of fun and especially Forest to Falz took a long time and was fun, this way you'd often meet a lot of people and make new friends.
While of course it has downsides like that you must literally kill everything ever to get to the boss and boss rush was impossible outside TTF, it meant that there was ample time to socialize and kill stuff at all times.
And just doing part of ruins for half an hour and then leaving was also an option if you didn't hunt anything and weren't desperate for exp, so you didn't really need to spend a lot of time for most of the stuff.
The real problem with drops wasn't the way they worked in general, it was only the abysmal drop rates. If you didn't have a 1/12500 chance for a Pwand from a miniboss appearing once a run or maybe 3-5 times in a long and hard quest, drops would have been great.
TBH I think PSO2 drops are BS. Using boosters you literally get 100+ rares every single EQ nowadays. Makes them all seem shit. Clutters your inventory and storage, Sega should have excubes drop instead cause that's all they ever amount to for the most part.
One of the HUGE problems with PSO2 is that it's a purely rewards oriented game, which means you don't want to play the part that gives no rewards and once new content's rewards become stale, you don't even want to play that anymore.
There is no main incentive to play just for fun anymore like in PSO.
I spent easily 10000 hours in that game (mostly PSOBB) just cause it was so fun to play long quests with friends.

While it makes sense that EQs let you get a lot of progress in a little time, they are completely anti casual and total BS. Not just that a fuckton of the good ones are scheduled during early morning or work/school hours in Japan so casuals cannot do them, to get the random ones you need to be ready to start up the game at almost a moment's notice, too.
And Sega's plan to make people buy premium set to get into a good block semi-backfires when everyone idles 90% of the time, wasting Sega's money while usually not liking the game enough to buy any AC.

PS: Not a single enemy in PSO2 is even near as threatening as a Chaos Bringer. Maybe some bosses but no regular or rare enemies.

PPS: PSO never was an mmo but that's precisely the charm and why I nearly dropped PSO2 when I saw the first 12 player quest back in 2013 and even again in 2014.
MMORPG's ALL have the exact same crippling flaw. Until you find a lot of friends to play with or are in a well sized guild, you will be running with strangers that don't even talk to you.
Out of the countless times I tried to talk to people in the numerous mmorpgs I tried, barely a handful ever replied to me.

Whereas in PSO you only had 3 other people and it was really intimate and direct and you were definitely playing with each other and not simply alongside each other, it was the difference between going on a trip with a bunch of friends and doing the trip alone, being surrounded by tons of other tourists from all over the world.
That's why any quest would be fun cause you would chat and kill the whole time.
Now it's pure killing, lest EQ time ends. Cause almost nothing outside EQ is worth doing for any noteworthy amount of time, all quests are super short and if you do a set like dailies or tacos you do it purely for the rewards, never for the fun.

[Shinnomura]

I agree on what you're saying about the pros/cons of both games. The intemacy of PSO and being able to have fun doing anything was what made the game last, if a game is just a rush to max level it's nothing more than a progress bar.

[Lumpen Thingy]

Goes from what game is better to if PSO and PSO2 are MMOs or not. Nice one POS forum. Anyways for the topic they're both good and shit in design one way or another and are both really really dam easy soooooo win win?