What do you want EP6 to get right?

[Zephyrion]

~snip

I mean let's be real, as much as I love HU, the class itself always has been the one with the least identity (and by that I mean class-defining mechanics). Most of the HU tree literally benefits from subclassing more than mainclassing in several cases due to survivability skill stacking with the extra SP you get from not having to skill HU-only stuff, and HU as the countering/aggro-managing class has never been a thing due to an even more screwy tree than the current one in EP1, followed by the addition of BR. The "identity" of HU then shifted to its weapon mechanics, that got refined over the years (except WL, because WL is that poor kid nobody remembers). So now we have weapons with very unique feels and mechanics tied to them....but most of that uniqueness is also the reason why they're so flawed as far as damage-dealing goes....conundrum, yay.

You'll just notice that unsurprisingly, all the "losers" from the major balance changes are classes with skill tree and/or design flaws in the first place. Like BO who has been considered a support for so long, despite having been played as another classic melee class because said support skills are so niche, and SEGA still wanting to push that flawed supportive side with stuff like dodge auto-field. Or TE forever being a weaker FO, and only saved from its hole by introducing a wand you can't play without because it's so OP, but at the same time OP stick literally funnels you into one boring and repetitive playstyle, which is so ironical for a class that used to have so many unique ways of being played.

Now remember, HU is also one of the "supportive DPS" according to SEGA's view, which honestly only translates to "the classes that would actually require a lot of changes to be functional as utility classes, but we already have so much on our plate, so we'll just bandaid them and hope it holds"

TL;DR EP5 merely highlighted issues that just were present in the first place. Even back in the days of EP3 with so many different builds and strategies, HU was just "left behind" because of the same reasons it's left behind now

[vantpers]

Yes, people started comboing on fi and hu (which subclassed fi) once it was literally forced on them through what is one of the most efficient damage buff in the tree.

And even then I remember plenty of people ignoring it and continuing to spam the same move repeatedly because it was lower effort and still passably effective.

Do we really need to discuss non meta choices of the players? I get someone might not combo but still. Either way, just Sword Hunter alone EP3 had Rising Edge for single target, Over End when the target actually wouldn't try to hit him, Ride Slasher as better DPS as long as it could actually hit properly, Twister Fall for even better DPS that required something to combo it into air and a big hitbox, Guilty Break for less PP efficient DPS which you didn't have to break, and Ignite Parrying for DPS when countering. All that EP3. You absolutely wanted a separate palette full of nothing but Ignite Parrying just so you can parry things properly

That has absolutely nothing to do with why Hu is shit as a mainclass. Hunter weapons are fucking clunky, dependent on multiple band-aids over an inherently flawed concept called gear, (sword) or ridiculously pp inefficient, (partizan) or just straight up forgotten (wired lance) Their mobility was absolute dogshit in the past despite being a class that depends heavily on sticking on their target, depending on partizan (again, absolutely destroying your pp bar) or Guilty Break, which is more feasable now that they've added two ways to maintain gear that should have been there from the start. As I mentioned earlier, the entire gear system for sword in particular was flawed from the get go, requiring you to maintain 3 levels of gear just to exist on the same playing field as other classes because your 0-gear PAs like Rising Edge were fucking god awful.

What Gear? Sword gear was semi-dead in EP3 unless you chose Fi/Hu, Partizan would be more gear dependent as it actually would disappear when using PAs and you had to charge it up. Officially dead in EP4 when it only ever limited your GB dashing, being so easy to maintain. Mobility has been good since EP3 on Sword, Partizan had just mediocre mobility, and Wired Lances had to wait for semi-fix of Adapt Spin buff.

And even if you get past all that? Their damage is mediocre. It's got nothing to do with defenses. Even if every other class in the game was a glass cannon except Hunter, they'd still be bad unless you just straight up removed the ability to iframe on everyone else or added some kind of unavoidable damage, and then it just wouldn't be PSO2 anymore, it'd just be a typical trinity MMO. Fighter has always taken a dump on Hunter as a melee, even before it had a ways to cheat dying in Limit Break and stack a million hp, because it's mobile and does more damage, and if you just popped a few points in step dodge, you could deal with everything well enough anyway.

Idiotic. Ponthi as Fi/Hu managed to Time Attack the toughest EP4 quest by getting hit on Fighter, not dodging things on Fighter. Do you think when someone does Stage 4 of the latest solo XQ they tank through damage because it's easier, or because having to avoid thing instead of doing AoE DPS would slow them down? Have you seen how a Ra/Hu plays in Endless? Particularly the last stage. You think Ra/Hu there could afford trying to dodge things instead of using Automate Halfline?

EP3 especially early on there wasn't heaven and hell difference between the two classes but with reverse order. Hunter had its advantages and Fighter had some, Fighter still had DS reliant on Meteor due to no free winds, and more PP problems. For all you talk about how Hunter weapons are something something immobile, you finally got to the true point. Hunter does less sandbag DPS than most things, Hunter is supposed to be able to waste less time on maneuvers that would lower the combat DPS, because you can charge PAs while defending yourself, you can instantly counter attack with buffed Sonic Arrow from JG, because you get PP back for guarding attack, and finally because you have Ignite Parrying. The problem was not Fighter having iframes. That's stupid. Everyone always fucks up if given tight enough timing enough times. Not even that was a problem, Fighter wasn't supposed to keep doing twice the damage of Hunter while dodging, even if it was supposed to do twice the damage of Hunter on a sandbag. But defensive skills did make for Fighter, and more so for other classes, sandbag out of nearly everything because fuck dodging damage.

In fact, Hunter nowadays is more playable now than in the past. With all the mobility buffs, gear bandaids and sacbite type 0, at least I can hit things in EQBQ before a fucking force snipes it out from under my nose like TD.

I am sure you couldn't hit anything because Guilty Break would charge in 20 frames to full, and now it charges in 10F to full. Not because things would die to the first guy who reacts and hits them.

...

Aggro-managing wasn't a thing with Hunter yes, but it's been getting counter focus since EP3 on Sword, and EP4 on everything. While other classes do get some counter abilities too, Sword is still the one with Ignite Parrying. Then you have charge parrying and [PA] Guard rings. Even Wired Lance can get ridiculous invincibility uptime by just spamming Heavenly Fall.

Other than that we all know Sega has been mismanaging things and my complaint is precisely that Hunter's more powerful and easier to use survival skills end up tied to a tree for everyone, rather than to weapon abilities with some main only restrictions. Then comes the part where Hunter was supposed to use all that extra combo mobility/damage evasion to edge out other classes, while Sega keeps giving Charge Parrying to Force, ridiculous guard frames to Deadly Circle, another Iron Will to Fighter, more PP efficiency to Fighter, Gear Exp counter to Fighter, Short Mirage to Force, or Hero's entire thing without bothering to even give back some DPS to Hunter in most cases.

[AVO]

Element Stance buff/removal/change

br and bo skill tree rework honestly.

[Kilich]

Just a note: I hope that Phantom is fun enough for me to finally switch off both Braver, that became my main every since its release, and Hunter that I sometimes try to go back to, like in Ep1, but Br's combo nature is just more fun. Or at least have a subclass that offers a damage boost that is easier to use in full than Fi's chase/slayer/LB/positioning stances,

[KatsuraJun]

Do we really need to discuss non meta choices of the players? I get someone might not combo but still. Either way, just Sword Hunter alone EP3 had Rising Edge for single target, Over End when the target actually wouldn't try to hit him, Ride Slasher as better DPS as long as it could actually hit properly, Twister Fall for even better DPS that required something to combo it into air and a big hitbox, Guilty Break for less PP efficient DPS which you didn't have to break, and Ignite Parrying for DPS when countering. All that EP3. You absolutely wanted a separate palette full of nothing but Ignite Parrying just so you can parry things properly

I mean that's literally the same as it is now, so I don't know what point you're trying to make here. It's no more spammy now than it was before, which is the point I was making.

What Gear? Sword gear was semi-dead in EP3 unless you chose Fi/Hu, Partizan would be more gear dependent as it actually would disappear when using PAs and you had to charge it up. Officially dead in EP4 when it only ever limited your GB dashing, being so easy to maintain. Mobility has been good since EP3 on Sword, Partizan had just mediocre mobility, and Wired Lances had to wait for semi-fix of Adapt Spin buff.

Ep3 is when they started band-aiding over the problem with skills and rings for sword in particular (in Ep4), so yeah, that's kind of my point. Pre Hunter Gear Boost sword gear was absolute shit because you were required to build it up rather slowly just to be able to do things in general, something no other weapon needed to deal with, and then it'd drain fast as fuck too.

Idiotic. Ponthi as Fi/Hu managed to Time Attack the toughest EP4 quest by getting hit on Fighter, not dodging things on Fighter. Do you think when someone does Stage 4 of the latest solo XQ they tank through damage because it's easier, or because having to avoid thing instead of doing AoE DPS would slow them down? Have you seen how a Ra/Hu plays in Endless? Particularly the last stage. You think Ra/Hu there could afford trying to dodge things instead of using Automate Halfline?

That's not the point I'm trying to make. Absolutely tanking through shit is more effective right now than dodging, but the problem is even before tanking through shit became a reality for every class subbing Hu, it's not like Hu was in a much better spot aside from Fi/Hu partizan LB Magatsu runs.

For all you talk about how Hunter weapons are something something immobile, you finally got to the true point. Hunter does less sandbag DPS than most things, Hunter is supposed to be able to waste less time on maneuvers that would lower the combat DPS, because you can charge PAs while defending yourself, you can instantly counter attack with buffed Sonic Arrow from JG, because you get PP back for guarding attack, and finally because you have Ignite Parrying. The problem was not Fighter having iframes. That's stupid. Everyone always fucks up if given tight enough timing enough times. Not even that was a problem, Fighter wasn't supposed to keep doing twice the damage of Hunter while dodging, even if it was supposed to do twice the damage of Hunter on a sandbag. But defensive skills did make for Fighter, and more so for other classes, sandbag out of nearly everything because fuck dodging damage.

The immobility was primarily about pre-Hunter Gear Boost era hunter, where mobility absolutely was an issue for the weapon.

So if you agree the problem is with Hunter damage being total ass, then buff Hunter damage, which is exactly what I want actually. It shouldn't be dependent on ignite parrying, a conditionally useful PA, to even come close to doing the same damage as everyone else using general purpose PAs. The point I'm trying to make here isn't whether or not tanking is better than dodging, it's that even if you took away automate and NGU nonsense from Fi, Fi would *still* be better than Hunter unless its rotations are buffed to be on par to Fi's rotations without limit break, and Ignite Parrying properly gives it dps approaching limit break. Taking defensive options away from everyone else won't close the gap, it didn't close the gap even before those defensive tools existed.

I am sure you couldn't hit anything because Guilty Break would charge in 20 frames to full, and now it charges in 10F to full. Not because things would die to the first guy who reacts and hits them.

No, "things dying to the first guy who reacts and hits them" is kind of how TD1 and 2 went, even after the ilmegid nerfs.

[vantpers]

I mean that's literally the same as it is now, so I don't know what point you're trying to make here. It's no more spammy now than it was before, which is the point I was making.

No, AoE in EP2 wasn't as spammy in particular, it had balance problems with making PAs useful but general AoE use PAs were often limited to be just as spammable. Ilmegid was a balancing error, and even pre nerf Shunka wasn't as much of an AoE spam as Kanran was, yet was preferred over Kanran up until nerf, and then there was still Hatou mobbing because Kanran had kinda disappointing damage at times. And it was more to the point about TAJA making people not spam things, and not things themselves opening up later for combos, especially in EP3 where we didn't have such huge AoEs everywhere while having good PA balance overall.

Ep3 is when they started band-aiding over the problem with skills and rings for sword in particular (in Ep4), so yeah, that's kind of my point. Pre Hunter Gear Boost sword gear was absolute shit because you were required to build it up rather slowly just to be able to do things in general, something no other weapon needed to deal with, and then it'd drain fast as fuck too.

Yeah I get it, but EP3/4 showed that even if you patch up gear it's still not THE problem. It was one of those fixed things.

That's not the point I'm trying to make. Absolutely tanking through shit is more effective right now than dodging, but the problem is even before tanking through shit became a reality for every class subbing Hu, it's not like Hu was in a much better spot aside from Fi/Hu partizan LB Magatsu runs.

Before it became reality... it was mostly EP2 or early EP3. EP2 Hunter had no edge in tanking because you had to deal both with lower damage weapons, and guard stance, since fury stance and defensive skills were an impossibility, even for other classes who had better SP balance than Hunter. It at most had a bit better HP. EP2 Hunter also did chip damage when JG attacks, JG was front only so not even an edge over Braver here, no Ignite Parrying, no Charge Parrying.

Early EP3 Hunter was also alright, okay mobbing, okay bossing since PP efficiency still mattered. Nobody really complained how much it sucked. There were Fighter main complaints that applied to every class, and resulted from a combination of too strong main class only Fighter skills that were universal damage, and lack of strong and easily available 13*. You could even say that Fi/Hu Partizan was closer to playing Hunter than Fighter, just with a different coat of class paint seeing how now classes are all about their weapons. Nobody would call Hu/Br running all Katana in EP2 a Hunter.

The immobility was primarily about pre-Hunter Gear Boost era hunter, where mobility absolutely was an issue for the weapon.

I get it but that era was years ago. Fixing it helped but something more is broken now.

So if you agree the problem is with Hunter damage being total ass, then buff Hunter damage, which is exactly what I want actually. It shouldn't be dependent on ignite parrying, a conditionally useful PA, to even come close to doing the same damage as everyone else using general purpose PAs. The point I'm trying to make here isn't whether or not tanking is better than dodging, it's that even if you took away automate and NGU nonsense from Fi, Fi would *still* be better than Hunter unless its rotations are buffed to be on par to Fi's rotations without limit break, and Ignite Parrying properly gives it dps approaching limit break.

Ignite Parrying does give DPS that can eclipse LB Fighter now, like in the first stage of solo XQ. But at this point even further Ignite Parrying eclipsing is just one-note balancing. You're supposed to buff a bit of that, nerf a bit of that. All that tankiness that just amounts to players being able to concentrate on damage dealing only and skipping any dodge/block mechanics is also a part of a broken system for an action game. It was kind of Sega's idea before that they will give classes counter bonuses because dodging isn't worth it compared to tanking through hits, which was ultimately a bandaid on a broken arm that works for a Hunter with Sword, if you're not mobbing.

More DPS to ordinary rotations? Yes a good bit more couldn't hurt, but mostly as a tradeoff so that ordinary DPS can't be delivered by mashing buttons and taking all hits in the universe, but rather utilizing weapon mechanics. Ignite already has amazing DPS and too much would just eclipse any other PA that wouldn't matter in the end compared to fishing for Ignite more. Follow the universal common sense rule of nerfing the strongest and buffing the weakest. Rest of the gap can entirely be solved by just dealing with Automated Halfline on anything that isn't Hunter, Iron Will procs to be more reasonable (like Hero's) and not working so well with LBI effectively preventing worst case scenario, NGU main only and cheaper, a bit less of a free hand to give the classes that already have god tier DPS also god tier speed or god tier combat mobility. Well that's for Fighter problem, and other melee classes.

Gu/Fi is another thing that's broken in its inside class mechanics where mobbing is entirely risk-less button mash that is PP positive and with a massive AoE, and bossing you're doing riskless good DPS that's PP positive before finishing up the chain for massive damage, which is now also way way less risky.

No, "things dying to the first guy who reacts and hits them" is kind of how TD1 and 2 went, even after the ilmegid nerfs.

Yeah and it was mostly what was wrong with them. It wasn't really melee class's fault that a ranged class can get hit in before a melee class does, it was the fault of the first hit also being the last hit. Early XH was a big help here.

[ArcaneTechs]

wheres my beasts at? PSO Idola got them, gimme gimme

[Kilich]

I wanted accessories and LAs to become more than just cosmetics for a while, so PA and Tech camo? For example, Ra can set One Point Pa to fire from a shoulder cannon camo, or Fo can set a LA camo as a replacement for Zonde casting.

[Halca]

I wanted accessories and LAs to become more than just cosmetics for a while, so PA and Tech camo? For example, Ra can set One Point Pa to fire from a shoulder cannon camo, or Fo can set a LA camo as a replacement for Zonde casting.

I've had a similar thought too. It would be awesome if they had rings or camos that affect the aesthetics of your techniques.
A huge one I really want is unique tech casting animations for every weapon type that incorporate the weapon. I also would appreciate them tweaking the rod casting animations cause they're kind of boring

[SteveCZ]

Give separate shoes ticket

Nevermind pls don't kill me.