Ok, since my other thread is long gone (I couldn't post over the weekend from home, so here I am at work and things seem to be humming along) or at least well-buried, I'm re-surfacing some of the Force chatter, Technique chatter, and I want to get some comparison results from characters with less 'Technque Damage' than the Forces.

Now I know the manual and the web page say certain things. One thing you learn as an EQ player though - *try things out*. Work with data. The fact something 'says so' doesn't mean it's true. But it is a good place to start.

To begin I'll address some things right off the bat from my old 'TD' thread though.. from my favorite RAcaseal Tenshi-Chan.

And yes, all three Forces have different TD. (Mr. "Thankfully I'm here". Sheesh!) All classes differ in it except androids, who all get zip. Look at the little web chart when you make characters. They all have a different length spike on TD.
Yeah I'm kind of glad I'm here too, just wish I could have posted earlier Happily, I'm correct. The **TP** spike is higher for the Newman forces. The **TD** is exactly the same. Take a better look. They're both on 4 notches out. I welcome any newman Force with hard numbers of their spell TP costs beating out a human forces.. or even straight damage if all other factors (like spell
level) or possible factors (like MST) are equal. In fact I'll ask for that later.

From here I'll go directly into Force chat. This is from starting a character and counting the 'notches' on the 'web map'.

FOmarl AD1 AC2 HP2 Hit2 TP4 TD4
FOnewn AD1 AC1 HP2 Hit2 TP5 TD4
FOnewearl AD1 AC2 HP2 Hit1 TP5 TD4

happens to be exactly the same as:
http://www.sega.com/sega/game/pso_launch.jhtml#

A few things right off the bat you notice from the manual. It suggests things like the FOnewn might access techniques others can't (not true). And that FOnewearl has a lower HP value (not true from the webmap, she has a lower -to hit- value). Others have suggest higher damage or better 'technique damage' (which would be damage/TP).. also from what we can see as a base.. not true.

Using the original stats as 'truths', one could see the following.. I'm also using max values from the Japanese MAX value chart.

FOmarl will be better with guns quicker than FOnewearl, and their AC is better than FOnewn. I'm still a little curious about defense/evade relationships (or even if there is one) - as you might guess though even if it's only straight damage reduction, given the light hitpoints of any force, more AC is nice. Neither loss is critical, and Mags are great items to balance holes, and although dexterity moves ATA up slowly, both defense and your to hit ability can be influenced by a properly weaned mag. Where the FOmarl loses a notch in the TP department, a heavy mind mag, which is rather easy to procure, can balance her towards the TP heavies.

Ok balance is great, but do these values hit you in the end? Actually yes.. it influences your max. Your mag/material usage/etc can only do so much. Lets look at the Force maxes, shall we?

atp: FOmarl 483 FOnewn 463 FOnewearl 463

Even though the webmap suggests equal damage across the board, looking at the maxes show the FOmarlcan exceed the newmen Forces in this area. This could allow weapon usage the others won't have access to, but it's unlikely to be a factor at all (particularly as it's melee related, and not based on MST like Force melee weapons.. it only comes into play if you're keying off some of the grunts hth types).

dfp: FOmarl 290 FOnewn 290 FOneweal 290

Ah, good news in the end for FOnewn. Starting off slower in the defensive area, a FOnewn can catch up in the end, relying on the Japenese data.

mst: FOmarl 650 FOnewn 670 FOnewearl 670

At least that's my guess for 'Perseverance'. Since MST directly yields TP (even though not mentioned in the instruction book) as well as spell field size, this suggests the FOmarl will never get quite as much out of a trifluid or range of a spell as a maxed FOnewn or FOnewearl. That said, considering what the max is likely to look like in terms of pure TP and range size, it'd hardly appear to be crippling or of much concern. However it's something to note. There is even a chance some technique *level(s)* are only available to FOnewn/FOnewearl, maybe even the highest weapon choice(s), but that's a question for the senior seniors. My guess is, in the end, there's not much of an issue here, but it's worth a note.

ata: FOmarl 132 FOnewn 121 FOnewearl 120

This ends up surprisinging a little.. where one might expect FOnewn defense to slip in the max but not here.. the reverse is true. Just like the MST value, this is unlikely to be a big deal, but there might be some guns in the range of only the FOmarl, in comparison to the other Forces. This is less of an issue to the cane/melee weapon wielding forces, however as the difficulty gets harder, personally I really only see myself using TP sucking guns or decent range damage dealers for extra hits, rather than much/anything in the melee arena. Of course some weapons I don't have access to now may change that.

evasion - all equal, 450

Good news to Forces, particulary the FOnewn and FOnewearl, who might have thought not having the well roundness of the FOmarl might dampen this max. Evasion so far as I've seen is a biggie.. with low hitpoints and defense for any choice, this is one I personally jump at the chance to beef up. Notably, you *cannot* 'mag up' evasion.. covet evade material and strong evade units.. at least IMO.

luck - all equal, 100

frosted lucky charms, they're magically delicious. From the earlier thread-

And again, in the manual, luck is referred to as Technique Luck, therefore it has to do something with a random element of techniques.
Luck, I think, goes up in levels so it could be the only deciding factor in a techniques special effects, but I'm not sure. I know there's Luck Material tho.
Yeah I saw the wording, but I've noticed some small errors in the manual or simplifications (like MST = size of technique effect, it's obviously more than that, driving TP and possibly damage as well, and spell
level is also supposed to drive this..). I'd still refrain from suggesting androids get no benefit and it effects nothing but techniques.

However it is obvious to expect from such a write-up in the manual, even calling it technique luck, that it isn't a bad idea to beef. Luck is even more elusive (unless there is a luck unit I haven't heard of) - luck material is another one to covet.

Well heck there's little material that isn't useful, personally I love hit material (one shot of a hit material with 2 bonus is like 4 dexterity in a Mag regards to ATA improvement.. that's 4 levels saved to a single dosage and earlier guns).

In general.. I'd say there's not enough to make you chose a Force based on stats alone, even if you're hardcore. Yes, trifluids will flow better for the newmens in the end. But unless you're starting with a gameshark or twinked, you'll have an easier go in the beginning as a FOmarl, and enjoy a little more fun with a bit wider range of weapons. No matter how you shake it, none of the three seem to have a serious enough difference to mean quite different results later on.

But one thing to get straight is those were just based on the chart values. Are the exactly the same, or are the 1s to 5s just representative.. just because they all show a '2' for Hitpoints.. do all Forces actually start and grow the exact same amounts? Does all having a 'TD' of '4' mean they have the exact same internal value? Well that's where one has to go deeper, with actual data.

I've been focusing on 'TD', and I'd ask people to post their spell costs. My 'Gis' and 'Ras' cost about 21 and 30 at start, respectively and inch up as they've progressed in cost as the spell level went up. I'm *particularly* interested in hybrids results, but if Forces have noticed changes as well, please chime in.

Here are some actuals: (spell level/cost)
[maybe I'll get damage up here next.. but it appears MST/other factors come into play.. for spell cost it seems only spell level and potentially the 'TD' factor]

Foie 10/8 Barta 10/10 Zonde 12/9
Gifoie 7/24 Gibarta 9/25 Gizonde 9/25
Rafoie 3/31 Rabarta 3/31 Razonde 5/32

That's a good start anyways.. I'd be interested to see what others found (particularly in the gi/ra line, as that seems to be the bread and butter, particularly razonde, rafoei, and gibarta I've found key).

Cheers,
DCKaz