War with Iraq has Begun

[Davion]

On 2003-03-21 12:18, RuneLateralus wrote:
I tried to hold my breath about this because people have such strong opinions of this. Basically, Frosty and Subliminal have my feelings about this. I feel that Bush is in this war for personal reasons and the only countries that support support us for the reasons that Subliminal mentioned.

And realize this. Even if Saddam is overthrown, what will stop the next leader or any future leader in there from becoming corrupt? Sure, things will be better for a few years, but like all quick answers, it will only lead the same, if not more, problems in the future. We will just be in the same position again.

The government rushes to find an easy answer to a complicated problem. And besides, we have enough problems (ie education) in the US. They need to concentrate on those before spending money we do not really have on a war.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RuneLateralus on 2003-03-21 12:21 ]</font>

12 years rune. 12 YEARS. Easy way? You know as well as I do that war isn't easy. Education. You're really very sadistic people you know. There are also no facts behind Subliminal's accusations. They're outright wrong. Of course what she didn't say was those people who are behind us know what its like to be under a Dictator's iron fist. We gave more help to Germany and France after WW2 and look at how they're reacting to us. No, I'm sorry. You're idea that this is bribed doesn't stand up to that. Maybe we have some REAL allies that aren't as fickle as France.

And realize this. Even if Saddam is overthrown, what will stop the next leader or any future leader in there from becoming corrupt? Sure, things will be better for a few years, but like all quick answers, it will only lead the same, if not more, problems in the future. We will just be in the same position again.

That means absolutely nothing. That just doesn't make any sense. What if we said that about Hitler? "Sure, we can take him out, but whay will stop someone like him rising up again." What good would that do the world? You people are just America haters and no matter what you will still hate us.

After WW1, America wanted to help rebuild Germany, but no, France and the other countries wanted to blame everything on Germany and make them pay for it. That caused Germany to become pretty ticked off and then what happened?

[Hunter4life]

Thanks for saving me the type-time Davion, i agree fully with you.

I'd like you people to wait and see how the Iraqi people act when Saddam's gone.

Oh what a day that'll be.

[00JOE]

I love how anti-war guys beat the crap out of each other, stealing each other's stuff in San Franciso. Talk about peace, eh? Bunch of hippy crack-heads.

Since everyone seems to be so much smarter than Bush, you go run a country. You try and have the suspence of a whole country on your ass. I think Bush is doing the right thing.

To anti-war hippies, I'd hit you with a shoe.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 00JOE on 2003-03-22 22:46 ]</font>

[SorceressofTime]

from all the anti-war demonstrations going on around the world, there may be more people dead in that than the actual war itself the way they're going.

[brillyfresh]

On 2003-03-20 17:48, Dangerous55 wrote:

Why did he? Oh hell I dont know, but I bet it's not about spending billions of dollars on the war to get some oil. Who buys most of Iraq's oil anyway? Germany, France, and Russia. I guess you never thought that it may be to help the Iraqi people did you?

You are just plain, flat out wrong, their is no logical reason to launch a war that will cost billions to get oil that will not equal that amount. "No Blood For Oil", great argument.

well, you certainly answered your own question there, and proved a good point: if this war was about oil, and the US happened to seize and control oil fields in iraq, then the US would have subsequent control over oil trade with Germany, France, and Russia. Now to answer my own question: Who has the most oil in the world?

Russia.

So what do they need Iraqi oil for?

[brillyfresh]

On 2003-03-20 18:10, TeamPhalanx wrote:

Anyway, I don't think oil is the core motivation here. I see it more as Bush trying to clean up his dad's mess, trying to draw attention away from what's going on in the states, and goin overboard in his quest for a world free of terrorism.

exactly. he's drawing attention away from the states ... with the war going on now, and the protection of our "freedoms" being ensured, the Bush administration has made leaps and bounds to diminish our "freedoms" as much as possible .... ever heard of the Patriot Act, or Operation TIPS, or the DMCA? when initially presented, they seemed like a sound idea then, with terrorism fresh in the American mind, but after reading the fine text, they single-handedly strip American citizens of many freedoms of privacy and speech that have, until recently, been taken for granted ..... and these laws, along with biased major media groups and the propaganda circulating in the US, are similar to the platform of the early 1930s Nazi Party

and if you haven't heard of these new laws, or see them for what they really are, or haven't seen the similarities between what is happening now and what has happened in Germany 70 years ago, then there is solid proof of our "valued American education" at work

[brillyfresh]

ok, i HAD to pick this one apart, it's 6am and i'm bored

On 2003-03-22 14:16, Davion wrote:
You people are much too conspiracy theoryish. To you, everything America does is wrong. I'm getting sick of it. After all we've done for the world, not to mention the fact that Russia and Germany don't have the nicest histories either. America isn't the perfect country some people make it up to be, but we're in no way as bad as people make us look. No other country is looked at like that. Doesn't that seem odd to you? France has talked about creating a power in Europe to balance off America. Funny, I thought we were allies, but it seems France only likes us when they're being invaded.

first of all, US history IS pretty ugly ... France doesn't only like us when they're being invaded, but if your feeble sight can look back far enough, France helped the US gain their independence and become a nation in the first place

.... but that's not the ugly part. THE MANIFEST DESTINY, where entire tribes of Native Americans were wiped out by Americans who justified it by saying that God intended us to have this land and not the people who were here first ... entire nations of people, cultures, languages ... gone

[brillyfresh]

On 2003-03-22 14:25, Davion wrote:
After WW1, America wanted to help rebuild Germany, but no, France and the other countries wanted to blame everything on Germany and make them pay for it. That caused Germany to become pretty ticked off and then what happened?

strike TWO! lol

after WW1, the League of Nations, prototype of the current UN, was formed by the US and European nations such as France, Germany, and UK, to rebuild and maintain Germany and status between the countries ... and can you guess who abandoned the idea and backed out of the League of Nations first? take a WILD guess ...

and Germany wasn't exactly in the position to be ticked off because of the German Depression, until a "democratic" party, with a powerful spokesman, stepped up to right the wrongs in Germany ... can you guess who that was?

please ... know history before you cite it

[Ness]

On 2003-03-20 17:39, Guntz348 wrote:

On 2003-03-20 17:35, Dangerous55 wrote:

On 2003-03-20 17:29, Guntz348 wrote:


And D55 the point is Bush has money to slaughter people for oil but not enough for schools.

Bush is slaughtering people for oil? That is moronic. I mean come on, where the hell do you get off saying that? So far 1 has died. ONE. How many Iraqi's has Saddam killed? Thousands. Why is that? Because we sent in ground troops instead of constant air-strikes.

Guntz, that was you're most idiotic comment yet.

So far he just started. I can't wait to see what shock and awe means, can you? To the rest of the world it'll most likely mean murder, but maybe thats a bit extreme. Oh and if this isn't about oil, then how come the vice president has allready signed a contract with an oil company to "manage" Iraqs crude oil during the US occupation?

I avoided this topic for a long time, but I found something I just HAD to say something about. I'm tired of all these people saying that this is an "oil war". If anyone nedds the oil from Iraq it would be the Iraqi people and the Europeans. We only get 7% of our oil from the middle east. Bush is trying to protect the oil so the Iraqis can use it to rebuild thier country. In case you didn't know, were are about to goto fuel cell and Bush just took affirmative action saying that in 2006 there will need to be hydrogen stations in the US.

*EDIT*
Whoever wrote this needs to be smacked.

Biggest purchaser of Iraqi Oil is...

a) United States of America
b) USA
c) Uncle Sam

We don;'t buy any of our oil from Iraq. We only buy 7% of our oil from Opec. It's Europe that is Opec's biggest customer. That's why Europe is against the war; they think we're going to take thier oil away from them.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ness on 2003-03-23 06:07 ]</font>

[Subliminalgroove]

No, Davion... What I said holds alot of water if you take a look at it. The items I listed for reasons the 3rd world countires have joined the "Coalition of the Willing" are very solid.

Also, a country's people didn't make the decision to side with the US in this, the politicians did. So your point about the countires in the coalition knowing what it is like to be under the iron fist of a dictator makes no sense. It's the dictator making that decision. If the people of the world had a choice, there would not be a war right now. As the majority feels it is the wrong thing to do. The majority feels we should have stuck with the UN a little longer on this, kept up the inspections. But that point is moot now.


And as far as your accusation that those of us who are fighting against this action are not supportive of our troops, that we don't care about them... You need to spend some time at a demonstration, friend.

I want everyone over there to come home. Too many people have died already. I am VERY supportive of our troops. I am NOT supportive of the military action. That is what I am fighting, not the troops and their families.

I have more than my share of friends over there. You think I don't worry for them all day? You think when I am protesting I am not wishing that they were here, drinking coffee with me instead of slogging it through a desert? I have immense pride in my friends and their commrads out there, I just feel they shouldn't be there.

And this talk about how Europe owes us for WW1 and WW2... people, wake up. We jumped into those REALLY late.

People making fun of france for just rolling over and showing their bellies everytime a conflict arises is starting to piss me off. Do you realize the amount of cassualties France had in the first World War? By the time we jumped into the fray, almost every man between the ages of 18 and 26 had died in the trenches. Can you even comprehend that? Almost EVERY single male at the prime of their life. And we walk around as if we made such major sacrifices to achieve victory in that war. Our Doughboys didn't come near that level of sacrifice. Sure France didn't fare well in WW2, but they relied heavily on their stationary defenses, which were no match for the blitzkrieg (sp?). And if you want to talk European countries that suffered heavy cassualties in WW2, I can name a large list.

The simple fact is, we are not the great savior. Our "victories" in WW1 and WW2 were built on the blood and bones of the soldiers from the very countries you belittle.

Now, I am off to practice my proud right as an American to disagree with what this country is doing. If I end up getting clubbed by violent police and thrown in jail at another a demonstation outside of my state capital building, so be it. That is how I am supporting my troops. That is how I am supporting my country. Trying desperatly to convince people that this heinous action is wrong. Trying tirelessly to bring our soldiers home to their family and friends.

I want my coffee with Josh, Marty, Sandra, and Dave, damnit!