Rifles..No? Twin Handguns..

[Tengoku]

On 2008-03-13 11:14, Hrith wrote:
Rifles already outperform twin handguns against airborne bosses, that's not the point. The point is if rifles will outperform twin handguns in any situation, and I fear they will.

Well, if your quest is pure damage and not utility, then you are correct. Congratulations! You've found a way you like to play and that's great! Others play in a different style and they find that twin handguns are superior for their play style.

I find the mobility of handguns far outweigh the damage potential of rifles. My play style > your desire for numbers. This isn't to say, of course, that sitting back and blasting things with my Phantoms isn't fun. It is, but I prefer being mobile, pulling aggro off my team, and actually being able to dodge the resulting attacks while I fight. That is enjoyable to me, and far more enjoyable that worrying about big numbers. To put it this way, my team > my ego.

Of course, nothing says "Ignore my postings" quite like this response to Akaimizu:

On 2008-03-13 11:23, Hrith wrote:
You "think", I know.

Awesome. Are you here to actually discuss the topic or try and browbeat people into submission? They're two quite different things, you know.

[Talise]

umm...truth be told, Hrith=fortegunner. His views are biased okay, enough said.

[FOnewearl-Lina]

Aikasoki/Cubo Mamba and Shigga Bines/Shigga Bomac largely outdamage Twin Ruby Bullet.

Newsflash: Shotgun outdamages every other weapon in fortegunners' arsenal save for grenade and laser. But this topic isn't really about those weapons now is it?

The picture above comes from a 130/20 Fortegunner.

You'd think the fact that she has an S rank rifle equipped already gave it away or something? Just a wild hunch

Twin handguns don't fire twice as many bullets as rifles, far from it. Don't compare 801 to 1152

No, but for every 2 bullets fired from your twins you get approximtely 1.25 bullets from your rifle. You'd only need to use simple multiplication to figure out that twins do more overall damage

The point is if rifles will outperform twin handguns in any situation, and I fear they will.

You "fear", I know.
Good luck with rifle in the last few stages of survival, where mobility and range of twins make them a far better option than rifle [u]would ever be[/u].

[biggabertha]

I think I can GUARANTEE that leveling Handgun rounds are MUCH slower than leveling Twin Handgun rounds.

In fact, Mayalee Hit levels REALLY slowly if you're not a Fortegunner but er.... that's waaaay off-topic.


It's kind of amusing to see such debates about Twin Handguns against Rifles. There's always going to be times when Rifles users will laugh through Twin Handgun users and vice-versa. Of course, you could just switch to different weapons in your arsenal if neither of them really suit the situation but Twin Handguns can't compare ranges with a Rifle and Rifles can't compare offencive mobility to Twin Handguns.

Isn't the point Hrith's trying to make is when you need offencive mobility, you should switch to another weapon such as the Crossbow or the Mechgun? Some months ago, I remember a user doing entire Hive S2 runs without getting hit with a Crossbow so are these bonus event missions really that dangerous if you take your time to watch the enemies movements? Or have I gone off topic again? Yeah... I have.... those two aren't Rifles... oops.

[Tengoku]

On 2008-03-13 16:47, biggabertha wrote:Isn't the point Hrith's trying to make is when you need offencive mobility, you should switch to another weapon such as the Crossbow or the Mechgun?

Not really. Hrith's point seems to be that rifles are always superior to twins, based on his experience and playstyle. He also doesn't seem to believe that there's room for disagreement. Well, disagreement with him, anyways.

[Talise]

On 2008-03-13 17:08, Tengoku wrote:

On 2008-03-13 16:47, biggabertha wrote:Isn't the point Hrith's trying to make is when you need offencive mobility, you should switch to another weapon such as the Crossbow or the Mechgun?

Not really. Hrith's point seems to be that rifles are always superior to twins, based on his experience and playstyle. He also doesn't seem to believe that there's room for disagreement. Well, disagreement with him, anyways.

well, that's only half it, he's aiming at all the other weapons in your arsenal(except card and handgun?) are superior to twin handguns, so they should never be used.

[amtalx]

Yea...beware of these kind of encounters with Hrith. I've had several in the past. Here is how they typically go...

You: Makes point.
Hrith: Counters with somewhat reasonable point.
You: Makes counterpoint.
Hrith: Counters with unrelated point about another weapon to avoid being wrong.
You: Tries to get debate back on track.
Hrith: Calls you a noob, lrn2red, etc.
You: Posts pics, calculations, or some other kind of solid data.
Hrith: Throws flashbang and disappears into the night.

[biggabertha]

If I use the analogy that Twin Handguns are a hybrid weapon; combining range, damage and aimable functions that are far superior to that of the more specialised weapons in a Fortegunner/Guntecher's arsenal such as the Rifle, Shotgun, Laser, Crossbow and Mechgun (Throwing Blades as well to a degree for Guntechers) where those weapons do better than Twin Handguns (provided you can get them to load gurr PS2 gurrs).

Going on that analogy, does that make Twin Handguns just the easiest weapon to use in almost any situation as opposed to the other weapons where you ought to put some effort into using? Twin Handguns are easily used everywhere and anywhere whilst dealing extremely satisfying damage (provided you have bullet levels) whilst Rifles, Shotguns, Laser Cannons, (Grenade Launcher for Fortegunner), Crossbows and Mechguns (Throwing Blades as well for Guntechers) are for the more specialised situations?

I can't argue that Twin Handguns to me seem cooler than Rifles and I can't really say that Rifles are really superior to them because I'm a Protranser at heart, I don't do mobility or speed firing or damage but I can say that Twin Handguns and Rifle users annoy me the most when they drag away or push away an enemy out of my Anga Jabroga range. The bullet flinching for all bullets have made Twin Handguns not as effective at pulling away a few creatures away from the group to me but maybe that's because I'm bitter that my Jabroga only hits four targets rather than five....

[Akaimizu]

Depends on the user. Distraction is usually best served as a way to get the ire of mobs away from the Hunter setting up a big attack. I know how fustrating it is to get Jabroga or any great setup interrupted. You can use distraction weapons and dance around creatures in a way that keeps them together as a pack. Especially since I'm a laser user, or am used to travelling with tech chuckers and the like, keeping the mobs together is kind of a priority.

Heck, I still have too much that requires them to group. Stuff like a few scenarios in Moatoob, where they spawn Vanda all spread at different points of the room is the most non-optimal thing I see. Can't even use traps effectively on them, unless I want to use all of my appropriate traps at once, just for that room.

Now some real time inaccuracies could occur. A case where you miss a target, but if they are thinking about you, they're probably trying to help you not get your Jabroga interrupted. 4 targets is better than 0.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-14 05:45 ]</font>

[XenithFlare]

Honestly, I believe that Twins will outdamage rifles in pure dps, but i wouldn't use them over bows (I'm a hardcore bow>rifle fan) against bosses. But then again, I also prefer to use the weapons I want to, rather than those that are socially acceptable in a given situation. *shrug*

As for levelling speed, it is MUCH easier to level twins than rifles. I would place them third, just after rifles and xbows; I remember it taking no time at all to level Twin Mayalee to 21 when it first came out, compared to Yak Megiga or even Frozen Shot.

Aaaand there was something said about Mechguns that I wanted to discuss. Their low ATA is completely made up for by your characters inherent ATA, and hitting for 350+ dmg A HIT makes MechGuns a formiddable weapon to bring to bear against damn near everything. A properly grinded Beam Vulcanic has over 1k PP, and that doesn't run out very quickly even when firing nonstop. Against small mobs, mechgun > all.