Casual use of Over End is bad...

[Kirukia]

It does include SH, but excludes a few levels really. If you're being realistic. It excludes them because it's a minority.

Mags, Units, both can easily obtain hit.
As you said earlier, you're referencing a pure ATP build only.
And I'd only need to break 450 for normal attacks.
SH = Level 60. So I'd be what, 21 ata away? *adds 25 hit to mag*
This is also the exact instance I said you were using. 5 levels into SH is still JUST getting into SH.
Tada.
25 ATP is a few damage. It's hardly going to matter.

PS: I'm bored of this. I haven't cared what you've been talking about this whole time. I'm just going to stop replying to this thread because all you've been doing is arguing. I'm not even going to open it, so your response will fall on deaf ears, or rather, averted eyes. Good bye.

[RRyuugu]

450 ATA? Seriously have you even went into SH? With your Hunter I'm not talking about your Force, Forces have Zalure which lowers the ATA requirement. Hunters do not.

Again conduct the test, use only 450 ATA. I'm sure the results will be hilarious.

[rhubarbot]

I still do not understand why you two are fighting so ardently about this when the entire premise is utter nonsense. There's too much in this game that cannot easily be represented with calculations for any DPS formulas or other such things to give you definitive answers about which one strategy is better than another. They might be helpful in devising things to try out, but they absolutely are not (and could never be) dispositive.

Here's an alternative approach that actually will work and takes far less time (and is much more fun!): PLAY THE GAME. Go into various levels, with various equipment, and try stuff out to see how well it actually works.

You'll probably find, as have most other people who have, you know, played the game a whole lot and systematically experimented with different strategies, that in SH:

— If you want to use weapons and don't have Zalure, you should probably have at least 520 ATA
— Claws are typically better than Swords are typically better than Daggers are pretty much always better than everything else (in melee stages)
— Handguns are very definitely better than whatever else (in ranged stages)
— Judiciously combining PA spam on the above weapons with normal attacks is the way to go; eventually you get the feel for exactly how much of either to use in whatever situation you're in

Seriously. Go equip your 65% to whatever CelebAinsraiffe with Over End, clear a few hundred waves of enemies with it with OE spam. Compare that to just using normal attacks. Compare that to a mix of spam and normal attacks. Do it all over again with a Hadan. Do it all over again with a Foie Haze. Then try these weapons in Rioh. Try using a CelebRougePulse with Flame Hit instead. Try using a range of other weapons and strategies. It should be very very obvious very quickly which strategies clear levels the fastest, and I'd bet you real money that you'll end up with pretty much the same results that I did, and lot of other people have.

No math necessary.

[RRyuugu]

Which was my point from the beginning, the formula is flawed because it is a poor representation of actual in-game events.

[Arcanas]

Well, before I found out about the X element to help me level faster, I was using Zalure weapons to lower def and evp...came in handy when it proced.

So, even hunters have access to Zalure, though not in the conventional sense.

[rhubarbot]

Which was my point from the beginning, the formula is flawed because it is a poor representation of actual in-game events.

Ok then. As newly-self-appointed Judge of the Thread, I hereby declare you teh winnar.

[RRyuugu]

Except to use Zalure on a weapon you need to be able to hit the enemy constantly. Swords have a 15%(? can someone check) chance of the element activating. Or 25, 25 is the highest so whatever %age Swords have it can never go higher

Meaning an average of 4 hits per mob for Zalure to activate. If you already have a low hit rate you can't rely on Zalure weapons to hit the mob. Unless for some reason you're switching from a high ATA weapon with Zalure to a low ATA weapon once Zalure hits, which I really don't get the reason for (you can just take the high ATA weapon and put Celeb)

[Arcanas]

Well, Shields have 25% proc rate, 20% for Saber and Laser cannons, 15%: Daggers, Spear, Claw, Handgun, Gunblade, Bazooka, Rod, Wand, 10%: Sword, Double Saber, Rifle, Mech Gun, Slicer.

Although, considering that swords can strike multiple targets, that 10% I believe is per hit, so let's say you've got 5 bats all swarming. Swing once, and you could probably get one or two hit with Zalure.

I know using the X element, and similar situations, since enemies like to do that, I get and exp steal every other attack. But that's just in my experience, no way does that apply to anyone else.

[RRyuugu]

If you could get 1 or 2 with 1 swing I don't think you'd actually need Zalure to decrease the ATA requirement.

For my Force, Zalure was a big step, I went from missing 2/3rds of the time to hitting almost every time. If I tried using Zalure on a weapon, 10% hit rate with only a 1/3 chance of hitting that would mean I wouldn't be expecting Zalure to activate until I spent minutes attacking the same mob.

[rhubarbot]

Meaning an average of 4 hits per mob for Zalure to activate. If you already have a low hit rate you can't rely on Zalure weapons to hit the mob.

You pretty much can't rely on Zalure weapons at any time ever because of the abysmal proc rate, which you helpfully point out. Even playing solo with the NPCs using a crappy ranger, things still almost always die before Zalure ever procs, or maybe 1 or 2 hits after it procs, if you're lucky. Or you could just use Celeb instead and kill everything up to 50% faster.

And I cannot imagine relying on a Zalure weapon to boost hit rate; that's just ridiculous. It's not even somewhat hard for any hunter class to get to 520 ATA. And every other class either has the ability to cast Zalure, or has obscenely high base ATA.