is this for real?

[Crevox]

Dagger gear giving katana combat-like range closing would be the one thing that makes daggers from an annoying-as-fuck weapon to one of the greatest things ever.

Which is why it boggles me that the only thing they're doing is upping the damage. Like, really?

Because some weapons actually take skill to use.

At least SEGA understands that everything shouldn't be braindead easy.

[gigawuts]

No, Sega does not understand that. Sega understands that it's easier to tweak a damage modifier than it is to rework hitboxes.

Look at Grapple Charge. They upped that damage at 11+. Players still whined. Only after like a year of people saying it needed work (along with tons of other moves which are unchanged, granted) did they change it at all. Of course, it still teleports enemies if the terrain is uneven, so they didn't actually fix the problem at all.

[LinkKD]

Huh...I don't find daggers that clunky really, especially with the new PA it just got.

I actually usually feel more comfortable with using daggers than any other weapon, lol. Ofc it's not easy to clear multiple mobs with it...but that's not what it's meant for anyway.

And I personally prefer having raging waltz over katana combat <_> I just cant control katana combat very well yet. Sometimes attacks dont make me go homing, sometimes they do, I can't really control the height I go to when I do go to the target, the constant moving around makes me lose JAs too and etc.

I guess I just have to get used to it, but at least for now, I find raging waltz a lot more accurate and controlled for sticking with targets, and as long as I do a couple normal attacks here and there between the raging waltzes, I dont usually have PP problems with it at all.

[Crevox]

No, Sega does not understand that. Sega understands that it's easier to tweak a damage modifier than it is to rework hitboxes.

Look at Grapple Charge. They upped that damage at 11+. Players still whined. Only after like a year of people saying it needed work (along with tons of other moves which are unchanged, granted) did they change it at all. Of course, it still teleports enemies if the terrain is uneven, so they didn't actually fix the problem at all.

Completely unrelated, really.

Personally, I have no issues with dagger "hitboxes." In all reality all they needed was a damage increase in my opinion, and it's getting it (and they're upping the gear, not base damage/PA damage, which means skillful play and dedicated players to the weapon are rewarded even more). If you have issues dealing consistent damage and/or feel like you need a katana combat mechanic, you're not doing it right.

I'm not saying SEGA balance is anywhere close to perfect, but this is the step in the right direction, and making daggers loleasymode is not the right way to go.

[gigawuts]

I just can't see how giving everything faceroll damage at all resolves anything, but then I also find the concept of losing your gear completely if you touch the ground to be pretty terrible too.

[Crevox]

I just can't see how giving everything faceroll damage at all resolves anything, but then I also find the concept of losing your gear completely if you touch the ground to be pretty terrible too.

Everything should not have faceroll damage, and that's exactly why they didn't make the weapon any easier to use. The only thing they upped was the gear damage, which fits this exactly right. If you're good with daggers, then congratulations, you get a free damage buff; if you're not, then this update probably won't benefit you much at all, and you need to either figure it out/practice or choose a different weapon.

If you have a problem with losing your gear when you touch the ground, you also aren't doing it right here either. Not only is it extremely easy to max out gear in the air in a very small amount of time (1 second or less) but staying in the air is pretty easy too. Different bosses may be harder or easier, and/or require different artes even, but if you know what you're doing, then daggers function just fine.

The game design answer to someone not being able to play it properly is not a buff to make it easy mode, but the player actually trying to figure it out.

[Ryock]

Huh...I don't find daggers that clunky really, especially with the new PA it just got.

I actually usually feel more comfortable with using daggers than any other weapon, lol. Ofc it's not easy to clear multiple mobs with it...but that's not what it's meant for anyway.

And I personally prefer having raging waltz over katana combat <_> I just cant control katana combat very well yet. Sometimes attacks dont make me go homing, sometimes they do, I can't really control the height I go to when I do go to the target, the constant moving around makes me lose JAs too and etc.

I guess I just have to get used to it, but at least for now, I find raging waltz a lot more accurate and controlled for sticking with targets, and as long as I do a couple normal attacks here and there between the raging waltzes, I dont usually have PP problems with it at all.

I don't find daggers clunky either. The only thing that kinda bothers me in some ways is the step attack. Double saber has a very good, comfortable step attack, where you can direct it as it comes out. If daggers didn't have such a straightforward dash with their step attack, I'd probably use them more. The daggers have been seeing more use though since those big birds came out.

[gigawuts]

Everything should not have faceroll damage, and that's exactly why they didn't make the weapon any easier to use. The only thing they upped was the gear damage, which fits this exactly right. If you're good with daggers, then congratulations, you get a free damage buff; if you're not, then this update probably won't benefit you much at all, and you need to either figure it out/practice or choose a different weapon.

If you have a problem with losing your gear when you touch the ground, you also aren't doing it right here either. Not only is it extremely easy to max out gear in the air in a very small amount of time (1 second or less) but staying in the air is pretty easy too. Different bosses may be harder or easier, and/or require different artes even, but if you know what you're doing, then daggers function just fine.

The game design answer to someone not being able to play it properly is not a buff to make it easy mode, but the player actually trying to figure it out.

I don't have a problem with maintaining gear - I have a problem with the entire implementation of the weapon. The whole execution is bad. It's a dumb idea to create a weapon that focuses on aerial combat with such restricted aerial movement (mainly done via homing moves that will ineffectively send you on an angle towards the ground if something is even slightly out of its maximum range) with such low PP recovery on normal attacks. Gear building being "easy" to build (I would call it "tedious," or "a chore" before "easy," since it only increases when you do individual leaps which are very arbitrarily given to different moves) does not mitigate the flawed nature of the weapons, and neither does "skillful play," whatever it is that even means these days.

Using something despite its flaws might make you skilled, sure. But requiring skill does not make it good design.

I was using daggers effectively and properly very early on after fighter was released. I was also defending them as capable weapons from the kneejerk da-da-da mouthbreathers, but a weapon being capable does not mean it's of good, sound design. It just means it's able to put numbers on your screen because they gave it big enough numbers in the database.

So, no. It's not completely unrelated. The flaw of daggers is the entire implementation. Daggers being for aerial combat? Sure, that's great. How they set them up? No, not so much.

[MetalDude]

It's not about T. Daggers being difficult to use because they're technical, it's because they have dumb flaws like their poor mobility on the ground and in the air. They have decent range in the air, they just can't chase worth shit outside of their one PA. Claiming incompetence on the part of Katana Combat undermines the fact that, when controlled properly, it functions as a much better T. Dagger. If a target moves too much, it's hard to warrant using T. Daggers when there are way better options available *cough*DS*cough*.

EDIT: Or what gigawuts said, basically. Numbers aren't going to magically fix their poor implementation.

[Crevox]

I don't have a problem with maintaining gear - I have a problem with the entire implementation of the weapon. The whole execution is bad. It's a dumb idea to create a weapon that focuses on aerial combat with such restricted aerial movement (mainly done via homing moves that will ineffectively send you on an angle towards the ground if something is even slightly out of its maximum range) with such low PP recovery on normal attacks. Gear building being "easy" to build (I would call it "tedious," or "a chore" before "easy," since it only increases when you do individual leaps which are very arbitrarily given to different moves) does not mitigate the flawed nature of the weapons, and neither does "skillful play," whatever it is that even means these days.

The aerial movement may be restricted, but it's manageable if you're good. You have quite a few options with the PAs they offer, and the tools offered by daggers (shift, no descent, air dash, etc).

Gear building isn't even really a thing most of the time. You could do it naturally (through PAs) or just shift-attack resets to instantly max it. Proper timing is required to use the shift key properly without losing altitude and such, but it's perfectly fine. Skillful play means being able to properly use the weapon and maintain the gear to inflict maximum damage, which is totally possible, even on enemies that remain grounded and/or are small.

Using something despite its flaws might make you skilled, sure. But requiring skill does not make it good design.

Every weapon has pros and cons. It's not a "flaw" if you cannot deal with it. If you can't deal with it enough to deal a good amount of damage, then your strategy is the "flaw" or you're not skilled enough in execution to be able to make the rapid decisions required and timing. Different bosses require different strategies and execution, along with various other factors, but either way you can make it work. I personally had no issues using daggers as my only fighter weapon.

It sounds more like you personally just don't like the playstyle, and if you don't, then you're not the person that should be using them. The issue currently and previously was even if you did play them properly, their damage output was still kind of disappointing. Now they're getting a buff, but are they going to be the next OP or compete with all the other top damage dealers? Probably not, but either way, you shouldn't be playing this game trying to simply be the best damage dealer, because there's always something more OP and that much damage isn't needed anyways. You play what you want to play for the fun of it.