Bouncer Class Discussion

[Gamemako]

Yes. Have you? It's a hybrid melee caster that benefits from both S-ATK and T-ATK simultaneously. And unlike Bo/Br or Br/Bo, it's actually good and effective. Your post made it sound like you don't know about it.

It's a pure tech class with inexplicably massive basic attack damage if you're really into boring yourself to tears mashing the left mouse button. It was replaced with BO for exactly that reason.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It's a pure tech class with inexplicably massive basic attack damage

With the large gap between Fo, and Te tech effectiveness, and the fact Te has very effective, but boring, one-dimensional melee, the statement 'pure tech class' really does not apply to Te.

[Selphea]

There are all of 3 efficient builds, and they're just the purest setups. If you do anything else, you're gimping yourself. Alas, of the 28 class/sub combinations (ignoring which you choose as main and which as sub), at least 20 are pure gimp setups with no value for "efficient" play.

That sounds quite off the mark. I mean, I run like, 7 builds on my main alone, depending on quest and what I feel like playing.

Regarding Bo/Br, I've been there and revisited a few times. The thing about Bo/Br is that it feels like a Bo/Fi or Fi/Bo except more conditional for less damage. Weak Stance just doesn't work well with Moment Gale mobbing. Otoh Average loses a lot of damage.

As a Bo/Fi with 13* or Fi/Bo, tech damage isn't half bad at all. It's actually really good for setting up Vinto while building Gear and doing damage, or for sniping or setting up Tech Arts and going into PP Slayer. There's more synergy mixing tech with melee as Fi than Br.

But I do think BoBr has some potential for some gimmicky setup involving Break/Weak with Rikauteri on a boss with lots of breakables. Just that the only XH boss right now is Zigmor and she has all of one important breakable that's faster to skip anyway.

I do have to wonder why most players who do BoBr go for a Katana build though. Full TATK build with Jet Boots/Bullet Bow has slightly more synergy.

[Gamemako]

That sounds quite off the mark. I mean, I run like, 7 builds on my main alone, depending on quest and what I feel like playing...

You can pretty much assign only one class for any weapon type, and selecting multiple weapon types is always comparatively ineffective. You pretty much have

HU weapons (HU/FI)
FI weapons (FI/HU)
Launcher (RA/HU)
Rifle (RA/HU or RA/BR)
TMG (GU/RA)
Techs (FO/TE)
Katana (BR/HU)
Bow (RA/BR)
JB (FO/BO, maaaaaaaaybe FI/BO)
DB (FI/BO)

There used to be a novelty Banish Arrow FO/BR, dunno what happened to that. That would be a total of 9/28 if you can still do Banish Arrow shenanigans. There are plenty of other joke builds, like HU/TE guard stance brick wall setups, but they're not efficient at all with the halved damage output.

I do have to wonder why most players who do BoBr go for a Katana build though. Full TATK build with Jet Boots/Bullet Bow has slightly more synergy.

Both builds aren't efficient. I reckon people use BO/BR pretty much solely to get at the Katana weapon PAs.

//EDIT: Forgot to respond,

With the large gap between Fo, and Te tech effectiveness, and the fact Te has very effective, but boring, one-dimensional melee, the statement 'pure tech class' really does not apply to Te.

What I mean is that it is a class with no utility or ability beyond techs. It's essentially a FO whose rod gets +800% damage, and the skill tree is even organized similarly to FO with single-element damage boosts and status attacks. It has no PAs. It could easily have been rolled into FO with rods instead of wands.

//EDIT 2: It probably SHOULD have been rolled into FO instead of the foolish tech bonus stacking we got in that skill tree.

[GoldenFalcon]

You can pretty much assign only one class for any weapon type, and selecting multiple weapon types is always comparatively ineffective. You pretty much have

HU weapons (HU/FI)
FI weapons (FI/HU)
Launcher (RA/HU)
Rifle (RA/HU or RA/BR)
TMG (GU/RA)
Techs (FO/TE)
Katana (BR/HU)
Bow (RA/BR)
JB (FO/BO, maaaaaaaaybe FI/BO)
DB (FI/BO)

There used to be a novelty Banish Arrow FO/BR, dunno what happened to that.

Both builds aren't efficient. I reckon people use BO/BR pretty much solely to get at the Katana weapon PAs.

What about HU/BR for still-effective hunter weapons and katana?
What about GU/HU for TMG damage that doesn't require hitting weakpoints? (although the loss of weak bullet is a big hit..)
Or BO/HU for strong kicking? I don't see the point of FO/BO for JB PA's (or FI/BO, since JB benefits a lot from mainclass)

There's plenty of novelty builds and support builds you ignore, but the fact is, someone's gotta do support.

What do you mean by using BO/BR to get "at" the katana PA's?

[Gamemako]

What about HU/BR for still-effective hunter weapons and katana?

Actually, I didn't count unique main-sub sets. BR/HU and HU/BR were considered as the same thing; otherwise, there would have been 56 combinations instead of 28.

What about GU/HU for TMG damage that doesn't require hitting weakpoints? (although the loss of weak bullet is a big hit..)

Purely inefficient. The game lets you do it, but it's weaker than the alternative with no redeeming quality.

Or BO/HU for strong kicking?

FI/BO outdamages BO/HU doing the same thing.

There's plenty of novelty builds and support builds you ignore, but the fact is, someone's gotta do support.

FO/TE and GU/RA will do all the support you need done, and take care of damage at the same time. Technically, you could even argue that some weapon setups are not really viable either due to lower damage and lack of additional utility, but I don't feel inclined to get that technical with it.

What do you mean by using BO/BR to get "at" the katana PA's?

Anyone can equip some katanas. Only someone with BR main or sub can use the PAs.

[Xaelouse]

Katana definitely doesn't need HU as main anymore, BR sub doesn't help WL that much and some of the useful PAs on the other weapons.

I'm not sure why people keep leaving out BO/HU boots either. The damage is pretty high and stable and has no stupid gimmicks. If you're worried about gear, use your PAs that just conveniently got buffed this patch along with JB gear boost.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Actually, I didn't count unique main-sub sets. BR/HU and HU/BR were considered as the same thing; otherwise, there would have been 56 combinations instead of 28.

Br/Hu and Hu/Br aren't the same thing though. No one bothers seriously using a sword as Br/Hu.

What I mean is that it is a class with no utility or ability beyond techs.

Its melee is efficient, and effective, devastatingly so. Every enemy hit creates an explosion that hits the target, and all other targets around it. If you zondeel 4 enemies in front of you, with one melee swing, you hit each enemy once with melee, and 4 times with explosions.

That looks like ability beyond techs to me.

It's essentially a FO whose rod gets +800% damage, and the skill tree is even organized similarly to FO with single-element damage boosts and status attacks. It has no PAs. It could easily have been rolled into FO with rods instead of wands.

//EDIT 2: It probably SHOULD have been rolled into FO instead of the foolish tech bonus stacking we got in that skill tree.

As long as element specialization is a thing, you can't roll Te into Fo; nobody will have the skill points to have all the tech damage, and utility Fo/Te is capable now.

Te is fine as main class for melee Te/Hu, or Te/Br, and does its own thing. It's also perfectly fine as a subclass for Fo/Te. Techer =/= Force.

There used to be a novelty Banish Arrow FO/BR, dunno what happened to that. That would be a total of 9/28 if you can still do Banish Arrow shenanigans. There are plenty of other joke builds, like HU/TE guard stance brick wall setups, but they're not efficient at all with the halved damage output.

Banish arrow Fo/Br, and Te/Br are still things, and isn't a joke build. You dealt similar, if not, superior tech damage than Fo/Te in some cases as Fo/Br, AND had the burst potential of banish arrow (we do have bows with large amounts of T atk). Fo/Br's only major drawback was PP management. When compound techs came to be, people preferred subbing techer to further increase the compound tech's damage.

[Superia]

You can pretty much assign only one class for any weapon type, and selecting multiple weapon types is always comparatively ineffective. You pretty much have

HU weapons (HU/FI)
FI weapons (FI/HU)
Launcher (RA/HU)
Rifle (RA/HU or RA/BR)
TMG (GU/RA)
Techs (FO/TE)
Katana (BR/HU)
Bow (RA/BR)
JB (FO/BO, maaaaaaaaybe FI/BO)
DB (FI/BO)

There used to be a novelty Banish Arrow FO/BR, dunno what happened to that. That would be a total of 9/28 if you can still do Banish Arrow shenanigans.

Te/Br and Fo/Br still have super strong bossing, and Fo/Bo doesn't (or at least shouldn't) exist. I don't understand how Br/Gu, Gu/BR and Br/Hu are being excluded as bow users, since they are all great at it even in comparison to Br/Ra. As for Fi/Bo doing more damage than Bo/Hu, that applies only in LB for DB, and is simply untrue for JB (PA-wise), even before the recent main class boost. The claim regarding the selection of multiple weapons is similarly unfounded.

What I mean is that it is a class with no utility or ability beyond techs. It's essentially a FO whose rod gets +800% damage, and the skill tree is even organized similarly to FO with single-element damage boosts and status attacks. It has no PAs. It could easily have been rolled into FO with rods instead of wands.

It has skill tree buffs to the pretty much all of the techs that take the form of support skills (e.g. Shifta Strike (which is great), Deband Toughness, Resta Advance or whatever it's called). It also is the tech class that ended up with wind as an element, making its Zanverse considerably better than Force's. It's mobbing for Zondeel-able mobs is basically unmatched, and it is the tech class that got the passive PP restoration and PP Convert. It is pretty clearly utility based in comparison to Force, and even if it weren't, the only similarity in the skill tree is the three sets of elemental boosts at the bottom.

Banish arrow Fo/Br, and Te/Br are still things, and isn't a joke build.

You damned ninja.

[Friyn]

FI/BO outdamages BO/HU doing the same thing.

This is no longer true. Satk JBs are superior to tatk in terms of PA damage.