When is a dupe a dupe.

[Gynn_Rei]

You're a cheater for exploiting a game's glitch for the benifit of you or someone else. Again, the concept should not be so hard for you to grasp. Whether you care enough to stop duping is entirely up to you.

I think you shouldn't be to hasty on your judgements RicoRoyal. This was only a question that I brought up, and I would like to know what you guys think about it here.

Like VioletSkye said I value the work I put into finding it. I also think both items are dupes but my friends does not agree with me on this matter because you put effort into it for him it then will be a dupe says my friend.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gynn_Rei on 2004-08-18 11:54 ]</font>

[Quo]

On 2004-08-18 11:54, Gynn_Rei wrote:

You're a cheater for exploiting a game's glitch for the benifit of you or someone else. Again, the concept should not be so hard for you to grasp. Whether you care enough to stop duping is entirely up to you.

I think you shouldn't be to hasty on your judgements RicoRoyal. This was only a question that I brought up, and I would like to know what you guys think about it here.

Like VioletSkye said I value the work I put into finding it. I also think both items are dupes but my friends does not agree with me on this matter because you put effort into it for him it then will be a dupe says my friend.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gynn_Rei on 2004-08-18 11:54 ]</font>

Nevertheless, Rico's point rings true. Dupes would not exist without dupers. Therefore: creating dupes is worse than owning dupes. Though, both are cheating. Why lessen the value of your hard earned rares by watching the thing you spent hours finding be instantly duplicated in seconds? It makes all that hard work worthless.

[heyf00L]

On 2004-08-18 11:46, VioletSkye wrote:

On 2004-08-18 11:21, Quo wrote:
Yes. Depending upon how you go about duping, once you dupe the original Item is gone and is replaced by two exact replicas.

Duping is bad, you shouldn't do it. If a friend wants a copy of an item you have, tell him to fuck off and find one himself. It is the instant cure. spreading dupes makes you not only a cheater, but also a n00b.

IMO.

This belongs in cheaters.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Quo on 2004-08-18 11:23 ]</font>

Technically, there is no "original" item. The hex for any item is simply stored in various areas on the character data. If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe because the game erased the data in the original offset location and recreated it in the a new area of the game data.

Every item in the game is simply a hex number that changes location as you use, drop, and bank them. Duping simply allows you to place an item on the ground without erasing the hex values from your inventory. You need to remember that these items have no physical attributes, they are only combinations of hex values (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,a,b,c,d,e and f) and nothing more.

Anyway, I'm neither condoning nor comdemning the act of duping, but rather pointing out, there is no "original" item. As for the ethics of duping, I would say that depends on the person and how they view it. If someone has worked hard to obtain an item, they don't "owe" their friends a copy of it. It all depends on the value that you place on it. I think often times its not really the actual item that they place value on, but instead the hard work and dedication it took to get that item. I can definitely understand someone who has spent many, many hours searching for a particular thing not wanting to cheapen that item by duping copies.

Like I said before the items are just a series of hex values that change locations depending on what you are doing with them, but the time spent to acquire that specific set of hex values is real and does have value and thats what needs to be considered when you are thinking about duping an item for someone.

Don't try to confuse people. Dropping an item on the ground is not duping and infact US copyright law recognizes this. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs Specifically a.1:
"it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner"
This was written to acknowledge the fact that computer programs make copies of data in RAM. It specifies that as long as it the copying must be done for the program to work, that it is not copyright infringement. But making a dupe falls outside of this and is technically copyright infringement and is illegal. Dropping an item on the ground is copying it, but is not illegal.

Also note how a.2 makes backup up your save file legal (as long as you only use the backup if your original file is corrupted).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: heyf00L on 2004-08-18 12:12 ]</font>

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-18 12:09, heyf00L wrote:

On 2004-08-18 11:46, VioletSkye wrote:

On 2004-08-18 11:21, Quo wrote:
Yes. Depending upon how you go about duping, once you dupe the original Item is gone and is replaced by two exact replicas.

Duping is bad, you shouldn't do it. If a friend wants a copy of an item you have, tell him to fuck off and find one himself. It is the instant cure. spreading dupes makes you not only a cheater, but also a n00b.

IMO.

This belongs in cheaters.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Quo on 2004-08-18 11:23 ]</font>

Technically, there is no "original" item. The hex for any item is simply stored in various areas on the character data. If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe because the game erased the data in the original offset location and recreated it in the a new area of the game data.

Every item in the game is simply a hex number that changes location as you use, drop, and bank them. Duping simply allows you to place an item on the ground without erasing the hex values from your inventory. You need to remember that these items have no physical attributes, they are only combinations of hex values (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,a,b,c,d,e and f) and nothing more.

Anyway, I'm neither condoning nor comdemning the act of duping, but rather pointing out, there is no "original" item. As for the ethics of duping, I would say that depends on the person and how they view it. If someone has worked hard to obtain an item, they don't "owe" their friends a copy of it. It all depends on the value that you place on it. I think often times its not really the actual item that they place value on, but instead the hard work and dedication it took to get that item. I can definitely understand someone who has spent many, many hours searching for a particular thing not wanting to cheapen that item by duping copies.

Like I said before the items are just a series of hex values that change locations depending on what you are doing with them, but the time spent to acquire that specific set of hex values is real and does have value and thats what needs to be considered when you are thinking about duping an item for someone.

Don't try to confuse people. Dropping an item on the ground is not duping and infact US copyright law recognizes this. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs Specifically a.1:
"it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner"
This was written to acknowledge the fact that computer programs make copies of data in RAM. It specifies that as long as it the copying must be done for the program to work, that it is not copyright infringement. But making a dupe falls outside of this and is technically copyright infringement and is illegal. Dropping an item on the ground is copying it, but is not illegal.

I'm not trying to confuse people, nor was I attempting to speak to the legalities of duping (or the game processes at work.) All I pointed out was that duping is nothing more than creating 2 instances of an item in 2 places whereas the game recreates that instance in 1 place. Irregardless of that, I was saying that the item doesn't really seem to be the issue, but rather the time and dedication spent obtaining the item and that is what should be considered by someone who is thinking of whether or not they should dupe an item.


BTW I am glad you posted that link though, thats great information and I'll definitely spend some time looking through it (very interesting)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-08-18 12:24 ]</font>

[heyf00L]

"If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe" is a confusing statement and is wrong anyway. It's technically not a dupe. A dupe is when the copy of the item goes outside of what is essential for program functionality.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-18 12:23, heyf00L wrote:
"If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe" is a confusing statement and is wrong anyway. It's technically not a dupe. A dupe is when the copy of the item goes outside of what is essential for program functionality.

Well whatever, maybe you can find something else to do besides arguing over stupid shit like this. Again you missed my overall point, but its not worth getting into yet again.

My definition of "dupe" is simply a recreation of something. If the game recreates it, then by MY definition its has duped the item. My definition has nothing to do with the legalities of the process, nor does it have anything to do with making an illicit "copy" of the item. I'm not associating "duping" and making 2 copies of something as the same thing in my example. If its the term duping that you seem to have a problem with, then simply replace the word dupe with recreate in my post.

Also as I already stated the link you posted was cool, but its not anything I give a rats ass about in terms of actually trying to apply it to my life or my gaming. If you want to spout legalities, then great but most people don't really care about any of that.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-08-18 12:37 ]</font>

[LoreSeeker]

In my eyes, duping for backups are ok. One could argue that it destroys all of your hard work my making an item non-legit, but doesn't FSOD eliminate your hard work as well?

The main thing people need to be aware of is responsibility. If you're going to dupe backups, DON'T SPREAD THEM AROUND. That makes you no better than a noob on Vega. If you are going to trade this item, be sure to delete your backup copy promptly so that there is no chance of a dupe floating around, unless the person you trade to decides to make it one. I think there's a huge difference between keeping backups to yourself and duping weapons for other people.

The question of the Terms of Service (ToS) always comes into play. Yes, it technically forbids users from exploiting any glitches found in PSO (assuming that they are online, which is why someone would be bound to the ToS). Offline, you are able to dupe and still be in compliance with the law, if I'm not mistaken.

The major problem with the ToS is that it is not enforced at all. There could be several reasons for this. Perhaps ST is just lazy, and doesn't feel like taking action. Perhaps they are afraid that they would lose too many customers if they enforced their ToS. It's even possible that ST is letting dupes slide because of their own errors in letting FSOD and FSODX exist. We can't be sure of what their exact reasoning is, however, we can be sure that since ST isn't holding up their end of the contract at all, we don't necessarily have to be bound to it.

Imagine that you and a friend make a deal that you are going to give him a ride to the movies and he will pay you $5 for the service before you go. He refuses to pay you $5, so why would you bother taking him to the movies? He didn't hold up his end of the bargain, so you wouldn't be obligated to either.

[heyf00L]

On 2004-08-18 12:26, VioletSkye wrote:

On 2004-08-18 12:23, heyf00L wrote:
"If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe" is a confusing statement and is wrong anyway. It's technically not a dupe. A dupe is when the copy of the item goes outside of what is essential for program functionality.

Well whatever, maybe you can find something else to do besides arguing over stupid shit like this. Again you missed my overall point, but its not worth getting into yet again.

My definition of "dupe" is simply a recreation of something. If the game recreates it, then by MY definition its has duped the item. My definition has nothing to do with the legalities of the process, nor does it have anything to do with making a "copy" of the item. I'm not associating "duping" and making 2 copies of something as the same thing in my example.

Well then I guess you have a different definition of dupe than the rest of PSO. The rest of PSO, when we use the word "dupe", is referring to when multiple holdable copies of an item have been made. You might want to keep that in mind when throwing around the term "dupe".
I got your overall point and was trying to prevent confussion caused by that part of it.

BTW, I loved the "Well whatever, maybe you can find something else to do besides arguing over stupid shit like this." line. Whenever I hear that (and also the "it's just a game" line) it lets me know that I win. Just so you know I'm stuck at work and don't have anything better to do.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-18 12:38, heyf00L wrote:
BTW, I loved the "Well whatever, maybe you can find something else to do besides arguing over stupid shit like this." line. Whenever I hear that (and also the "it's just a game" line) it lets me know that I win. Just so you know I'm stuck at work and don't have anything better to do.

Heh, enjoy your "win." I wasn't trying to compete, I was just expressing my views (which is what I thought the forums were for.) Anyway I'm sure your victory prize will be in the mail soon, so that you can show off your amazing "accomplishment" (even though, I "technically" wasn't even trying to win anything, mainly because there isn't anything to win, but hey, you just keep thinking that to yourself and enjoy it LOL)

BTW that was not my overall point, but simply the lead -in to my point, which was (again) its not the item, but the time and hardwork that makes and item special to someone. That is what needs to be considered for people thinking about whether to "make another holdable copy of it"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-08-18 12:50 ]</font>

[Quo]

Try to stay on topic you two.