Ep 5 balance update discussion

[Hysteria1987]

any information, if HERO can't do old EQ?
cause of required sub?

I can't confirm if true or not but I seem to recall hearing Hero has a level cap of 30, so maybe there'll be different rules for it, and lv30 is equivalent in power to 80 of other classes. Maybe.

Oooor maybe we'll be stuck in hardmode.

Still, they're calling this the first 'advanced' class so it wouldn't surprise me if new rules were made.

[AzurEnd]

I can't confirm if true or not but I seem to recall hearing Hero has a level cap of 30, so maybe there'll be different rules for it, and lv30 is equivalent in power to 80 of other classes. Maybe.

Oooor maybe we'll be stuck in hardmode.

Still, they're calling this the first 'advanced' class so it wouldn't surprise me if new rules were made.

Hero's initial cap is Lv30, but if you notice in the preview video the person was Lv75 when fighting those bosses so chances are we are gonna have to hop through a lot of hoops to unlock Lv75. Who knows maybe they might tie hero progression to the Story Board for Ep5, doubt it though.

[Dark Emerald EXE]

While I got all classes level 75 long before they implemented it, I would say the majority got all of their classes to level 75 since a year or 2 ago.

I think I had all classes prior to SU to 75 before Ep4 atleast once.

[Alenoir]

July 30th 2017 graphic of most played classes: 95% hero, 1%force, 1%ranger, 1%hunter, 1%bouncer, 1% gunner

Doubt it. Still gotta get our Gracia/Yamato rematch! Also RIP FI BR TE.

[Ryuhou]

I wish they removed or replaced stances entirely. They're more of an annoyance than anything else. Current skill tree system encourages speccing into once stance instead of switching between them, which is what's implied by the concept of stances. Stances themselves are boring conditional multipliers which don't change the way people play. Fighter's stances often act as a damage randomizer. Braver's stances force you to pick one based on weapons you want to use. Bouncer's stances are straight up nonsense and aren't even opposites.

Hunter's stances conceptually are the only ones that could potentially be fun to play with, because it'd be up to players to get creative with their use rather than have enemies dictate the "correct" one, but there still would have to be massive mechanical differences between the two (not just "boost damage by X%/reduce incoming damage by Y% but rather something that affects character interaction with enemies, like Automate/MH, even better - alter the way PAs work to some degree).

We can never stance dance, not possible. As such it's necessary you don't need to change them often.
Stance dance would require 4 extra buttons (main and subclass) you could use at time time, like switching color in Ikaruga. That is not only impossibler but also it is the main mechanic for an entire game to switch between 2 options. Having 4 ontop of the entire rest of the is unfeasible unless you are hardcore MLG.
...wait what? WTF? "Stances themselves are boring conditional multipliers which don't change the way people play"? I assume your damage sucks bad. Cause virtually everyone else plays to maximize the massive damage multiplier from stances, especially on fi.
Stances dictate how you play, that's why fi stances are so unbelievably bad as the rely almost entirely on ping.

I want to play Hero, but because this is Sega the idea of Hero scares me. How are they going to screw up the skill tree? Is it going to be viable to play Sword and TMG Hero? Are we going to be forced to spec into only one only weapon type because of the skill tree?

I want to play Hero, but with how our skill trees have been I'm afraid they will screw with up too.

I really doubt there will much speccing overall. Sure there will be weapon related skills but those costing so many SP that not all classes will be good would defeat the entire purpose of the class and the much advertised cross weapon combos, so I highly doubt it's going to be a problem

That assumes 95% of the playerbase bothered to level one S, R and T class to 75

Still, not too happy that they decided to kill Gu as a burst damage sub yet keep the much more popular Hu sub untouched. Standardize the class skills so that other options are as attractive as Massive + Automate + Flash Guard and 76% damage

And I still want a no-BS 20PP Jet Boots PA

Gu was really not killed at all. Like all other burst damage it was just nerfed so it is no longer gamebreaking. We will now get a far better PSO2 that isn't just mindless rushing after drops but where boss battles are actually fun for a change. And chain was buffed, not nerfed. OP damage with chain requires a more controlled environment than usual and bosses like deus prevent long chains anyway except in vary rare situations. So for most people and situations it's a pure buff because they would not have done OP damage anyway. Instead it's now far more reliable to use chains, raising damage in many situations.

Also, hu got its burst damage nerfed like everyone else. Vol Graptor is weaker and more expensive now. Probably no longer worth it in many situations cause it eats pp so fast you do more damage spamming pas.

[isCasted]

...wait what? WTF? "Stances themselves are boring conditional multipliers which don't change the way people play"? I assume your damage sucks bad. Cause virtually everyone else plays to maximize the massive damage multiplier from stances, especially on fi.
Stances dictate how you play, that's why fi stances are so unbelievably bad as the rely almost entirely on ping.

While my wording in that part was poor (should've said something like "don't grant additional functionality to player characters"), you could have really inferred the intended meaning from the rest of my post. Stances dictating the way class should be played is not good. Character progression is supposed to expand general number of viable options, not limit it.

And no, Fighter's stances are not terrible because of ping, because positioning is tracked by client and not server. Fighter's stances are terrible, because:
1) whether something is going to face you with their front or back is heavily affected by other players in MPA. Mobs that come in packs often have their aggro divided between multiple players, so you can't secure maximum damage on all of them. Enemies also like to run away while you are trying to reposition yourself, so you can spend more time stepping than actually attacking. None of that is a player, yet he's getting punished for it;
2) some enemies just love to suddenly turn around or dash through you. So you often have to abandon everything and reposition. It breaks the flow of the combat. Don't forget that most enemy patterns are random too, so, again, random punishment for no fault of player;
3) for some enemies front and back are defined completely fucking arbitrarily. For Elder being closer to him means you have to use Wise, whereas for PD it's Brave. Apos during pillar phase requires different stances for different pillars, even though all pillars face towards the arena center in exact same way (to add to the confusion, main body is rotating all this time). Double requires different stances for different legs, even though legs are independent objects in the way they act; but during gate attack you suddenly have to use WISE stance for all legs, even though everything is clearly facing you (unless you explain this attack as Double shitting out gates on us). When Zeshrayda shows its back, its back is considered front. The list just goes on and on.

We can never stance dance, not possible. As such it's necessary you don't need to change them often.
Stance dance would require 4 extra buttons (main and subclass) you could use at time time, like switching color in Ikaruga. That is not only impossibler but also it is the main mechanic for an entire game to switch between 2 options. Having 4 ontop of the entire rest of the is unfeasible unless you are hardcore MLG.

If stance dancing can't be viable, stances have to go period. The mechanic of having to press a button when you load into campship is neither engaging nor meaningful. In their current state it's a skill point dump that takes up subpalette space.

[Zephyrion]

While my wording in that part was poor (should've said something like "don't grant additional functionality to player characters"), you could have really inferred the intended meaning from the rest of my post. Stances dictating the way class should be played is not good. Character progression is supposed to expand general number of viable options, not limit it.

And no, Fighter's stances are not terrible because of ping, because positioning is tracked by client and not server. Fighter's stances are terrible, because:
1) whether something is going to face you with their front or back is heavily affected by other players in MPA. Mobs that come in packs often have their aggro divided between multiple players, so you can't secure maximum damage on all of them. Enemies also like to run away while you are trying to reposition yourself, so you can spend more time stepping than actually attacking. None of that is a player, yet he's getting punished for it;
2) some enemies just love to suddenly turn around or dash through you. So you often have to abandon everything and reposition. It breaks the flow of the combat. Don't forget that most enemy patterns are random too, so, again, random punishment for no fault of player;
3) for some enemies front and back are defined completely fucking arbitrarily. For Elder being closer to him means you have to use Wise, whereas for PD it's Brave. Apos during pillar phase requires different stances for different pillars, even though all pillars face towards the arena center in exact same way (to add to the confusion, main body is rotating all this time). Double requires different stances for different legs, even though legs are independent objects in the way they act; but during gate attack you suddenly have to use WISE stance for all legs, even though everything is clearly facing you (unless you explain this attack as Double shitting out gates on us). When Zeshrayda shows its back, its back is considered front. The list just goes on and on.


If stance dancing can't be viable, stances have to go period. The mechanic of having to press a button when you load into campship is neither engaging nor meaningful. In their current state it's a skill point dump that takes up subpalette space.

Stance dance being not viable... what ?
it works perfectly fine be it on keyboard or pad unless your subpalette is seriously wonky : just press one or the other is that complicated ??
Also I completely disagree with 1 and 2 for FI stances and about stances in general because

1 lol...Chaos riser ? and even if you bar that FI isn't a mobbing specialist anyway (while still being able to get relatively good damage in that regard)
2 stuff doesn't turn around that much unless they are attacking, and if you are on LB, you're going to try and dodge that (since once they finish whatever twirl/dance, they should end up facing you again). Also as FI you should have aggro on you a good amount of the time. as the 'Brave" frontliner you are

I whole-heartedly agree with 3, but this is more SEGA not being coherent than an issue with how stances themselves are designed really

And stances are a limitation but it's a fun limitation. it's a way to encourage various playstyles, make sub-classing more varied and also give classes their identity... unless you want everyone to have fully unconditional damage which is not only boring as hell but detrimental to balance. No stance classes have tons of mechanics that give them depth, and stance is what gives melee classes their depth

Again just opinions. I can understand your feelings, but stances have a lot going for them. If we were to get rid of them, I'd hope for a serious re-work to make up for the lost depth

[Altiea]

My problem with stance dancing is that it has to play an animation when you activate Stances, which kinda breaks the flow of combat. I wish they would just use quick animations like Showtime and Wand Lovers so I wouldn't have to stop what I'm doing to turn on Break Stance when Zephyros summons serpent heads again.

[Rayden]

I've always thought Fighter's stances should just be passive skills. I see no reason to have to manually switch between them. It's just a frustrating mechanic, and it takes up space on the subpalette as well.

I suppose Bouncer's stances could be passive as well, but I don't care as much in that case.

[Zephyrion]

My problem with stance dancing is that it has to play an animation when you activate Stances, which kinda breaks the flow of combat. I wish they would just use quick animations like Showtime and Wand Lovers so I wouldn't have to stop what I'm doing to turn on Break Stance when Zephyros summons serpent heads again.

That would actually a great way of keeping the stances while not killing literally every build involving dual stances.

I've always thought Fighter's stances should just be passive skills. I see no reason to have to manually switch between them. It's just a frustrating mechanic, and it takes up space on the subpalette as well.

I suppose Bouncer's stances could be passive as well, but I don't care as much in that case.

Stances being a passive would only work for only single stance builds... which would completely kill any subclass that isn't HU sub except for tech classes (which are already the least played mind you). Stances are meant to be active skills in the first place. It's just that balancing and implementing issues make some melee users think stances are passive multipliers (no thanks for FI,HU and BR not even having the leeway to get both stances in the first place for most builds), therefore giving the feeling it's a penance to turn them on

There would be many solutions to that problem but making them passive skills is clearly one of the worst ones, since it would mean the death of an absurd amount of builds for the sake of having your cherished class do things better and smoother. I can understand the bias, but in no way can I approve of it in a "health and proper balancing of the game" perspective. Making stance activation smoother is something I'd definitely approve of on the other hand