Bouncer Class Discussion

[Gamemako]

Br/Hu and Hu/Br aren't the same thing though. No one bothers seriously using a sword as Br/Hu.

Braver adds less to swords than Brave Stance alone. Hell, it's comparable to just taking PP Slayer and S-ATK passives. If you're taking HU/BR and intend to use swords, you've got an all-around weaker setup than HU/FI. You may like it, but it is not efficient, or even close to efficient. Hell, sword HU/BR is more "wrong" than BO/BR because you not only have a the damage penalty, you have no utility gain with HU/BR where BO/BR at least gets some (modest) utility from the deal.

And no, you can't avoid it except to nerf bonuses from FI or buff bonuses from BR. Since they are the same type, katanas are only useful if the lower-bonus BR can be combined in a way (with HU) to compare to other melee weapons. HU can be combined with the higher-bonus FI, so its weapons can be keyed to that standard. If BR bonuses are weaker than FI bonuses, then either sword HU/BR is underpowered or katana BR/HU is overpowered. Right now, the former is the case.

Its melee is efficient, and effective, devastatingly so... That looks like ability beyond techs to me.

Your "ability" is, again, just what happens when you boost a FO's rod damage to absurdity. It is not unique at all except that it just gives higher numbers to the same attacks FO already has. You could just as well create a class with +5000% to all hits, and then talk about what a unique character you've made by giving +5000% damage to what already exists. Again, this is why the shitty TE was replaced by BO.

As long as element specialization is a thing, you can't roll Te into Fo; nobody will have the skill points to have all the tech damage, and utility Fo/Te is capable now.

As long as [shitty design] exists, you can't implement [good design]!

WELL, I WONDER WHAT THE SOLUTION TO THAT COULD BE.

I don't understand how Br/Gu, Gu/BR and Br/Hu are being excluded as bow users, since they are all great at it even in comparison to Br/Ra.

They are mathematically inferior in every way. You can never hold a candle to RA/BR as BR/GU. There is only one efficient solution to that problem. If you exclude whether someone might, you know, want to enjoy playing the game, then there are very few ways to play.

//EDIT: Superia corrected that error below. See followup posts.

This is no longer true. Satk JBs are superior to tatk in terms of PA damage.

Ah, OK. So you might have to do FI/BO DB and BO/HU JB, but the efficient decision still being made for you.

[Flaoc]

i am not seeing this.. this guy really is trying to defend bo/br

i think i seen enough internet for a day

[Gamemako]

i am not seeing this.. this guy really is trying to defend bo/br

i think i seen enough internet for a day

No, I'm calling people out on being idiots playing their own shitty builds like sword HU/BR which are just as far behind, and then saying "ZOMG OH NOES U BO/BR NO VIABLE". I know BO/BR is weaker than what I could do as an efficient build, but there are very few efficient builds to go around.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Braver adds less to swords than Brave Stance alone. Hell, it's comparable to just taking PP Slayer and S-ATK passives. If you're taking HU/BR and intend to use swords, you've got an all-around weaker setup than HU/FI. You may like it,

I never said I do. I was making an example for why you cannot think of Hu/Br, and Br/Hu as the same thing.

Your "ability" is, again, just what happens when you boost a FO's rod damage to absurdity...

... and give them step, and specific mechanics to amplify their melee...

this is why the shitty TE was replaced by BO.

Really wish you would stop saying that when it's not true.

Te has far better mobbing potential in power, and efficiency, better PP management, amazing synergy with Fo and Br, wider ranged support techs, shifta strike, deband toughness, deband cut, super treatment, respectable tech damage with Br subbed, and 3 minute buffs to name a few things.

Bo has none of the above.

Bo does not replace techer. At all.

Your statements about 'Te = Fo', and 'Bo replacing Te', is making it hard to take your ideas seriously. Why are you trying so hard to blur the lines that separate Te from Fo, and Bo? You're effectively saying 'minus these unique features that make this class different, it's the same class!'.

Again because I can't drop this; I've never seen anyone make a statement so asinine as 'Bo replaces Te' from anyone else.

As long as [shitty design] exists, you can't implement [good design]!

WELL, I WONDER WHAT THE SOLUTION TO THAT COULD BE.

The solution would be more work than SEGA is willing to do.

Even if they did, how would you smooth over your proposed removal of an entire class?

[Charmeleon]

They are mathematically inferior in every way. You can never hold a candle to RA/BR as BR/GU.

This is pretty wrong... all of the class combos that use bows use them in different ways that can't be objectively compared without context. BR/GU as it stands is the king of burst damage in organized groups for large bosses, being able to deal over 10 million damage in one combo, while RA/BR mains RA so it can equip strong ranger weapons while also having a bow for more reliable burst damage without having to use Chain. BR/HU uses bows for striking damage (Kamikaze Arrow) and TE/BR / FO/BR use bows to multiply their tech damage, which are completely different applications of the weapon itself. RA/BR is not the single best bow user as you claim.

[Superia]

They are mathematically inferior in every way. You can never hold a candle to RA/BR as BR/GU. There is only one efficient solution to that problem. If you exclude whether someone might, you know, want to enjoy playing the game, then there are very few ways to play.

It might be that you are either using your words non-literally or just do not know what you are talking about, but CT's multiplier is well over 400% when built.

Spoiler!

4人でマガツXH1分16秒くらい

カンストするチェイスアロウ

These things are not doable with Ra/Br or Br/Ra, because the Gunner Braver combination is the most damaging in the game under the right conditions.

Spoiler!

【PSO2】アルティメットクエスト ヴォモスブロドシス 【Br/Hu】

【PSO2】アルティメットクエスト NG集その２ 【Gu/Ra】

Similarly, these sorts of things are much more difficult and time consuming with Ra/Br when soloing. Ra/Br would do more damage on paper, if it could actually get a chance to do the things that would allow it to do more damage. You've got to look at the context.

Your "ability" is, again, just what happens when you boost a FO's rod damage to absurdity. It is not unique at all except that it just gives higher numbers to the same attacks FO already has. You could just as well create a class with +5000% to all hits, and then talk about what a unique character you've made by giving +5000% damage to what already exists. Again, this is why the shitty TE was replaced by BO.

Not sure how I missed this. Actually it's pretty different. Most of Techer's wand damage comes from hitting multiple enemies at once and requires a melee-focused subclass to actually work, which is pretty clearly designed to make it deal very strong at melee damage while mobbing and nothing else. As for Bouncer, that is not comparable to Techer by any design metric.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

This is pretty wrong... all of the class combos that use bows use them in different ways that can't be objectively compared without context. BR/GU as it stands is the king of burst damage in organized groups for large bosses, being able to deal over 10 million damage in one combo, while RA/BR mains RA so it can equip strong ranger weapons while also having a bow for more reliable burst damage without having to use Chain. BR/HU uses bows for striking damage (Kamikaze Arrow) and TE/BR / FO/BR use bows to multiply their tech damage, which are completely different applications of the weapon itself. RA/BR is not the single best bow user as you claim.

Not sure how I missed this. Actually it's pretty different. Most of Techer's wand damage comes from hitting multiple enemies at once and requires a melee-focused subclass to actually work, which is pretty clearly designed to make it deal very strong at melee damage while mobbing and nothing else. As for Bouncer, that is not comparable to Techer by any design metric.

We should all agree gamemako has no idea what he's talking about, and is trying his hardest to blur the lines between classes to create some sort of deluded hierarchy of class combinations in his head, and actually wants sega to do just that to Te, despite them working to give Te an identity (and did a good job of it) since late EP1/EP2.

[Gamemako]

I never said I do. I was making an example for why you cannot think of Hu/Br, and Br/Hu as the same thing.

It's not an important question when it comes to using one weapon. HU weapons are not suitable with BR.

... and give them step, and specific mechanics to amplify their melee...

...which apply just to an existing attack and don't do anything unique in the process except throw a bunch of extra damage onto the hit...

Really wish you would stop saying that when it's not true.

It is true, and you answered yourself why we still have TE at all:

Even if they did, how would you smooth over your proposed removal of an entire class?

It might be that you are either using your words non-literally or just do not know what you are talking about, but CT's multiplier is well over 400% when built.

No, you are correct -- I forgot about the changes to CT since I stopped playing 13 months ago. However, that kinda misses the point: there is no one class which dominates all situations, which is why I didn't just assign one class. There probably are much more narrow constraints that could be set if I felt like doing a lot more math, but it's not really the point. There are many classes which rule in no situation, or whose strengths are marginalized at best.

That bow BR/HU was unimpressive. Was there something I'm missing going on there with his gear? Using all level 1 extended weapons or something? Does that boss take -50% damage from striking attacks?

[Naoya Kiriyama]

If you're taking HU/BR and intend to use swords, you've got an all-around weaker setup than HU/FI. You may like it, but it is not efficient, or even close to efficient. Hell, sword HU/BR is more "wrong" than BO/BR because you not only have a the damage penalty, you have no utility gain with HU/BR where BO/BR at least gets some (modest) utility from the deal.

The main difference between Hu/Br and Bo/Br is that at least Hu/Br with sword have way more synergy than Bo/Br, and Hu/Br sword is viable, unlike Bo/Br and I can explain you why.

First, take a look at tree skills. You have Average from Br tree + Fury and JA from Hu. Other skills like Snatch JA, attack advance, quick mate...

The main benefits on Hu/Br sword are mostly, survivality and stable damage. There's a bonus since Average Charge benefits from Sword PAs, considering some sword PAs are chargeable, like Guilty Break and Nova. It also don't rely on taking risks like Hu/Fi sword although this one have superior output damage but relies on stance switching among other thinks.

If I say something about Hu/Br I'd say "Easier to play and safer than any other" and gives good damage. And you can easily switch between Sword and Katana

Bo/Br on the other hand, stances have no synergy at all thanks to Bo stances, which sucks ass. Elemental stance would require having a rainbow palette of DBs, Katanas or a JB. And break stance is too situational and would only work against bosses mostly, where as soon as you break any part, goodbye bonus damage. Second, Br sub gives less damage than Hu by far, and 0 survivality. The only thing there's synergy with Bo/Br is if by any weird reason you have a DEX mag to take both mag bonuses since they do stack. But Br does nothing for Bo (quick mate is useless because Bouncer have resta, attack advance is useless because basic attacks from DB/JB are pretty weak, only using techs with JB can benefit from average charge, etc.)

Point is: is Hu/Br the best? No. It's viable? Yes. Is Bo/Br the best? No. It's viable? No.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It is true

No it's not, because

, and you answered yourself why we still have TE at all:

I just force-fed you a bunch of things Te does differently, and better than Bo.

You acknowledge everything I listed.

So... why do you still insist you're right in saying 'Bo replaces Te'? Why do you still insist Te and Fo are the same class? I'm trying very hard to not think you're an idiot, but you're really not helping. They are different classes that do different things in different ways, and everyone in the past two pages aside from you knows this already.