NicoNico Live Broadcast #20

[Gamemako]

Everything is too overpowered.

You mean every class is overpowered when selecting certain blatantly-overpowered builds and gearing to the hilt. Take out the clusterfuck that is Fury Stance spec, for example, and it suddenly takes you more than twice as long to kill anything. That's the cost of speccing the only damned defense tree in the game, and that defense tree isn't going to save you enough damage that it's any less likely you'll die during the fight.

No, what's out of control are the damage values and multipliers. Instead of seeing diminishing returns on damage specs, like any properly-designed game, you get multiplier after multiplier after multiplier after multiplier, each with higher and higher boosts and each fully compatible with the last. What should have been a max of +30% damage output for a spec becomes +130%, then is combined with something on another class it never should have and becomes +250%.

Meanwhile, the tankiest of the tank specs can only eat some big hits and troll juggles through automate halfline and 3-5 dimates consumed. Everyone gets knocked over just the same. Obviously, it's grossly inefficient to attempt, but I don't think you can even call it "overpowered" in general.

i already gave up on debating game mechanics.
are you having fun with this game or not?
thats all that matters.

I'm starting to regret coming back simply because of how horrifically poorly designed the skills are. They are broken to the point that they just about ruin the game. I know I won't be grinding stuff late-game unless they fix it, and they have as yet shown no inclination to do so.

[omgwtflolbbl]

Before you even care about how well tank built characters can survive in this game, you need to ask if the design of the game requires tanks in any capacity at all.

The closest thing you can get to fulfilling a "tank" role (with CC and and aggro draw) is going te/hu and spamming War Cry and/or Zondeel. And the problem with this role is that any sufficiently geared people going pure DPS will generally kill anything before your aggro draw or CC are really necessary for survival, so your role is fairly pointless anyway.

The only way to really fix that is to make regular monsters be a legitimate threat to players. And the only "easy" ways to do that are to either give them cheaper 1-shot mechanics, which don't feel good (for obvious reasons I don't care to explain), or give them a ton of HP so that they actually have time to gang up and potentially deal some damage to you that -may- add up over time (lol). The problem, though, is that these trash mobs are just that - trash mobs. It doesn't feel good to take a long time to kill bland, everyday trash mobs.

I wrote about this at length in the Warframe forums, which suffers from some very similar problems as PSO2 does at its core design. I think PSO2 actually does things a fair bit better (yes, I think SEGA actually did a better job at balancing/scale than someone else... though barely), but both of them have design issues that I'm not sure can actually be worked around. And for those who really want tanking/supporting roles to become clearly defined and regularly useful, I think that's really an impossibility here without vastly quite a few things.

For those who never played Warframe... let's just say that you have the ability to turn your entire 4 man squad literally invulnerable to damage through your own solo effort for practically the entirety of the mission, even as enemies scale from "end game" levels (40-50s) to levels 100-1000+, and enemy HP/armor/shield growth was exponential. And yet, you could still one-two shot things at these absurd levels/hp/armor/shield amounts with certain setups.

Fun game, but they suffer many of the same problems, some of which are actually exaggerated in Warframe due to the potentially infinite scaling (as opposed to level caps here), as the root of the problems are the same in both games.

[Kumichan]

1) No they aren't, and if you think they are, then I have nothing to discuss with you. The surveys matter to Sega, and you're taking pessimism to a step beyond realistic expectations to think otherwise. At the very worst, try to make a difference.
2) I never checked, but you implied there were, which is why I made that comment. Regardless, Sega is getting input, they are making changes from that input, and it generally comes from Japanese players because of the language barrier. Our input is no less invaluable, it just needs to be translated.



Do I seriously have to answer this question. You don't see anything wrong with bashing other classes solely because you don't like them, and constantly putting down players of those classes while going on and on about how awesome his OP class is, and how it should always be OP, and how it's so unfair for it to be nerfed in any way? Because that's what prompted me to call him out on it in the first place, and I am not the first person to do so. He has been a nuisance with his ignorant, incessant bashing of other classes. If you aren't aware of that, I'll give you a free pass on not knowing it, but you really have no business even getting involved.



1) No I don't, and if you have to put your assumptions so crudely, at least make a pretense of understanding my perspective, instead of stupidly making up one for you to use. Furthermore, it's a given that the game can be improved. It would be stupid not to believe that. Putting it like it's a bad thing to believe that is nothing short of disgusting.
2) He likes to make fun of classes he doesn't like, not weak classes. Not that either is acceptable, especially when 90% of your posts (not even a gross exaggeration) consist either of fanboying over how awesome/overpowered the classes he plays are, or how boring other classes that he doesn't like are, and how they should be useless support bots who only exist to make his preferred classes perform better. That level of selfishness is nothing short of irritating and has no place anywhere. He should keep it to a 4chan thread or something more tolerant of shortsighted opinions.



Quite frankly, you're the boring one here. You defend someone clearly in the wrong over something you display a minimal amount of understanding of. You tell me every productive use of discussion is pointless, and that I shouldn't even try to make a difference, because it's a waste of time. You demonstrate lack of foresight, an unwillingness to participate in efforts to be productive, let alone actual productivity, and you encourage ignorance. That is what you've done in the two posts you've made. That is worse than useless. It's a step backwards. Now stop wasting other people's time.

1) Sega will gladly take suggestions that make money like fundoshis and stat boosters but if you really think it will bother with balance suggestions I got nothing else to tell you. But I will anyway. You are fooling yourself if you believe that's going to make any difference.

2) He is not completely wrong. For TD1&2 that's their role.

3) You don't have to agree with his "shortsighted" opinion but this is the place where people come to give their opinions. In the end, both his and yours opinions won't change a thing. Why do you think your opinions are more important than his? Personally I found his remarks funny. I guess I am not the only one or he would be shunned/banned already.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

1) Sega will gladly take suggestions that make money like fundoshis and stat boosters but if you really think it will bother with balance suggestions I got nothing else to tell you. But I will anyway. You are fooling yourself if you believe that's going to make any difference.

Well that's just pessimistic and unproven. In one way or another they were made aware of the balance problems shunka and Sroll presented, and you have no way of knowing if they were aware of this problem all along, and willfully ignored the complaints of players, or if it was in fact a huge outcry from the playerbase (at least the JP playerbase).

[Kumichan]

Well that's just pessimistic and unproven. In one way or another they were made aware of the balance problems shunka and Sroll presented, and you have no way of knowing if they were aware of this problem all along, and willfully ignored the complaints of players, or if it was in fact a huge outcry from the playerbase (at least the JP playerbase).

Well, first sega isn't worried about balance. This ain't e-sports kid. There is barely any competition. Sega worries about money.

The census show us that sega is keeping track of things. They can just look at the numbers and easily figure out the current meta. Stuff really broken like pb chains get fixed in no time.

Of course sega knew most people were using gunners and bravers and that all other classes were getting bashed ingame and in the net. In fact, they were very clear that the trashing was very worrying. If you believe sega, the bravers and gunners trashings (people like everlast), and not detailed analysis about why forces suck and how to fix the problem was what made them consider the nerfs. They probably decided to tackle the issue now because it started affecting the bottom line.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Well, first sega isn't worried about balance. This ain't e-sports kid. There is barely any competition. Sega worries about money.

The census show us that sega is keeping track of things. They can just look at the numbers and easily figure out the current meta. Stuff really broken like pb chains get fixed in no time.

Of course sega knew most people were using gunners and bravers and that all other classes were getting bashed ingame and in the net. In fact, they were very clear that the trashing was very worrying. If you believe sega, the bravers and gunners trashings (people like everlast), and not detailed analysis about why forces suck and how to fix the problem was what made them consider the nerfs. They probably decided to tackle the issue now because it started affecting the bottom line.

1: A fun game with variety keeps people playing and people paying. It's in their wallet's best interest to give us enough to keep us from getting bored with their content. Making other classes fun, or stopping classes from being a hydrogen bomb with legs serves that purpose. That should be common sense.

2: Nothing you said disproves the idea that they take player survey responses regarding balance into some degree of consideration when it comes to the current status of their game as you've said here:

1) Sega will gladly take suggestions that make money like fundoshis and stat boosters but if you really think it will bother with balance suggestions I got nothing else to tell you. But I will anyway. You are fooling yourself if you believe that's going to make any difference.

You're already not working from a sensible position in that argument unless you have 100% irrefutable evidence that they ignore those surveys because the purpose of a survey is to gather consumer opinion regarding their product!

As a matter of fact, you then admitted SEGA listens to player feedback to a degree.

Of course sega knew most people were using gunners and bravers and that all other classes were getting bashed ingame and in the net. In fact, they were very clear that the trashing was very worrying.

So what's the point of discussing it with me when there's nothing to disagree on? The only person you seem to disagree with is yourself.

3: "Kid"? The fuck is your problem? Try communicating with some damn respect to someone who has yet to offend you. Where in your deranged, rude head did you get the impression I want PSO2 to be an e-sport anyway?

[LonelyGaruga]

@Walkure: After glancing at a post of Z-0's in that Shunka nerf thread, I've determined that I was looking at the game incorrectly, and retract my view on the game's state of balance. I don't personally like it, but the game really is basically designed to be broken, and a power creep might actually be the best thing for it. I think of speedruns of some single player games that I play, and I think, none of the exploits or game mechanics abused would have changes welcomed. Part of the fun of that level of play is breaking the game to the greatest extent possible for the fastest or most showoffy runs. Why would it be right to change how PSO2 works so that it can't be exploited/abuses to the same extent?

So yeah, I retract my view.

1) Sega will gladly take suggestions that make money like fundoshis and stat boosters but if you really think it will bother with balance suggestions I got nothing else to tell you. But I will anyway. You are fooling yourself if you believe that's going to make any difference.

Pessimism is fine when it's done realistically. That is not the case here. Sega has repeatedly balanced the game precisely because of issues brought up by players. To say otherwise is equivalent to saying the sky is yellow. It is factually wrong.

2) He is not completely wrong. For TD1&2 that's their role.

That is a gross oversimplification of the many applications that Force and Techer have. Freezing, tagging with Ilmegid, inflicting Panic on Vibras, and damage output when necessary are all roles that they can take in addition to Zondeel. I end up doing all of these things as appropriate. I completely agree that exclusively using Ilmegid is stupid, and if a player had to use only one tech, Zondeel would be better, especially for better organized runs, but outside of top play? You have to take all of those roles in order to get a decent run. If you see a Force or a Techer relentlessly spamming Ilmegid during TD, you're not looking at a Force or a Techer player. You're looking at someone too terrible to be called a player of their class. You're looking at scum that cannot be considered representative of their class in the slightest degree.

3) You don't have to agree with his "shortsighted" opinion but this is the place where people come to give their opinions. In the end, both his and yours opinions won't change a thing. Why do you think your opinions are more important than his? Personally I found his remarks funny. I guess I am not the only one or he would be shunned/banned already.

I don't find ignorance and stupidity funny. Simple as that. It's lowbrow humor at best. If you like it, then good for you I guess.

[Maenara]

The only fun component of this game for me, is the combat. I look forward to each and every new boss because it promises to serve up combat in a brand new way.
There is nearly no character development in this game. You level up. You get new gear by doing the same thing you do when you level up. You do the same exact missions over and over again to get enough money to convert new gear into something remotely useful.
There is next to nothing in the department of exploration, every new area has some new scenery and one or two gimmicks to set it apart from other areas, gimmicks whose depth can be fully revealed within 10 seconds.

It is not fun to me when bosses are treated as slightly bigger trash mobs. The only interesting component of the game is nearly eliminated when the only things capable of drawing out combat to a point where it can even be identified die almost before they themselves can be identified. It is not fun when I can fully expect to have gained nothing but a level up by the end of the day.

Sega could make things like Darker Den, except, difficult, by today's standards, and add some sort of thing to show for it that builds up towards something that is not turned obsolete by anything based on luck whatsoever, and that would be amazing.

[Gamemako]

Before you even care about how well tank built characters can survive in this game, you need to ask if the design of the game requires tanks in any capacity at all.

I think there's a few ways you could be looking at the defensive setup:

1) Tank for soaking damage and holding aggro (e.g. standard holy trinity tank)
2) Durable CC/heal/utility tank (e.g. D&D cleric)
3) Durable DPS (e.g. so-called off-tank)

There are five things working against the damage-sponge tank. First, non-boss mobs die too quickly to be tanked; second, not all bosses can be tanked at all (i.e. no real focus target); third, boss weak points are not necessarily on the rear; fourth, a tank is not necessarily able to take attacks at all; and last, bosses often attack through players, leave the field temporarily, and generally refuse to cooperate. The second is a bit of a design quibble which is worth addressing momentarily. The third can be overcome on some level by Weak Bullet, so it's not really the nail in the coffin. The last is a bit of a waste generally since it reduces your advantage, but isn't worse than a boss who turns in circles going after everyone else. Of these issues, the utility tank and durable DPS avoid the three mentioned by not being aggro-focused.

The first one is the heart of the problem in general and the fourth is the nail in the coffin for all possibilities, not just an aggro tank. Mobs die too quickly because the game's stacking modifiers are horribly and predictably broken. Opponents are made trivial by the ability to stack damage output far too high. The important part to remember here is that even in trinity MMOs, tank DPS is typically upwards of 50% of dedicated DD DPS. Other tanky roles are usually 70-90% of glass cannon DPS. In PSO2, a pure tank is not only ineffectual, it's 25% of a DD. Simply speccing a durable DD (Fi/Hu with Guard Stance, for example) costs you 50% of your damage output, and the game spends most of its time pressuring players with a time limit -- basically, a DPS check. That just makes no damn sense whatsoever. The fourth is the general problem that even if you do spec pure tank, you might just get juggled and killed anyway unless you have a stock of mates for another busted skill. That comes from a lack of proper protection against status lockdown generally, both by and against players.

I think the problem should be addressed by severely curtailing damage stacking and increasing enemy threat to the player.

A) Cut pretty much all bonuses by a third and reduce stacking value. By that, I mean all the 10% bonuses become 7% additive stacks. That includes Guard Stance tree, stacking as inverse sum.

B) Increase enemy speed and damage in higher difficulties. Increase aggression and super armor stacks to prevent spawn control and hard CC abuse.

C) Fix spawning mechanics by changing spawn locations to prevent spawnkilling (or camping out with ilmegid or launchers).

D) Reduce healing strength and increase cooldown timer on defensive proc abilities (e.g. Automate Halfline).

E) Introduce combo damage and status protection (incl. knockdown). The more hits you take in a short period, the less damage you take from hits and the less likely you are to be knocked down by the hit.

There's lots more you could do as well to balance out skill trees. Regenerating super armor stack with Guard Stance (10s cooldown, say?) to reduce awkwardness of Sword use, make Techer Shifta and Deband bonuses apply additively to reduce suckage, redo FO element stacking trees altogether...

Re: Warframe, yeah, that game is a mess in general. Sure, Trinity is lol, but you even have Valkyr which is explicitly invulnerable for the duration of an ult that can be kept up constantly except for a brief reactivation animation every minute. She's almost unused, though, because she does such poor damage (also, busted animations). They tried really hard to go for "feel powerful" to the detriment of the game's entertainment value. Also, awful, floaty movement.

[Zyrusticae]

I'm starting to regret coming back simply because of how horrifically poorly designed the skills are. They are broken to the point that they just about ruin the game. I know I won't be grinding stuff late-game unless they fix it, and they have as yet shown no inclination to do so.

This is pretty much where I'm at.

I just don't see the point in playing when everything's as borked as they are. There's no build variety to speak of, everything is mathematically defunct right off the bat (and what's really bothersome here is that some basic arithmetic and good design sense would easily fix almost everything wrong with the skill trees as they stand). There are hints of potential here and there but they're mostly wasted with how poorly everything's been handled.

I had some hope when they announced they made a dedicated balance team but with the slow, slow, arduously slow pace they've been moving at it's hard to be enthusiastic about any of it.